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prisma
@prisma
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sans-sarif
@sans-sarif

we're reminded of a piece that someone once wrote on, tumblr or a forum like, 15 years ago - it was discussing how fan communities tend to cleave in of two ways.

(HOLLY NOTE: THIS POST WAS FOUND. THIS POST IS THIS POST BY A REDDITOR DISCUSSING WHY REDDITORS OFTEN BASH TUMBLR FANS OF DR WHO. YOU ARE WELCOME TO READ THAT, AND IN FACT WE ENCOURAGE IT, AS IT LENDS A VERY SPECIFIC TONE TO THE REST OF THE REFERENCE THAT THIS POST IS.)

The first option is that the community is largely transformative - artists, writers, musicians taking a base material that affected them in some way and changing it. Classic examples being fixing what they didn't like, expanding on material they wanted more of, retreading the material but with explicit queer themes, transposing it to an alternate universe to explore character dynamics with different stakes. This is where you get those 50 billion alternative sanses in undertale aus. it's where you get coffee-shop kylo kissing someone, or an extended alternate take of a show/movie that changes major points to meet the creator's desire. it's your fanart of the wolf and the snake from bad guys kissing exactly as passionately as i'm led to believe their on-screen chemistry would imply.

the other type of fan culture is archival - the wookiepedias, the dark-souls wikis, the rivet counters. these people don't want to create, they want to record a perfect library of everything that happens or could have happened or will happen in a media as if they were creating a sistine chapel ceiling fresco of the exact shape of the silmarillion. you can argue whether or not these people have experienced any feelings about the materiel they have interacted with because they seem dead set on not actually grappling with whatever themes or morals the media had.

these are the people who cannot be reached by the question of "why does it matter what the author meant, what does it mean to you" - they don't want it to mean anything to them at all and resent you for asking them to weigh in on such a matter. if it's not the "true and correct" meaning, then what value does it have to an archive? if someone can find value in interpreting the catcher in the rye as being about the loss of innocence in war, which runs counter to salinger's own personal insistence that his time serving was of no matter to the book, what does that mean in an archival sense? you can't put that on a shelf. it doesn't fit into a neat web of interconnected wiki pages, it doesn't slot onto a timeline.

archivalist fan culture breeds a sneering anti-intellectualism by way of said intellectualism being unable to be slotted neatly before or after the battle of yavin 4.


amydentata
@amydentata

Even beyond "what does it mean to you" is the fact that humans usually don't know what they're doing or why, and that includes authors, and it's extremely common to notice after the fact that there was more to something you created than what you were aware of at the time! Most people have things going on with them that they'd deny if you asked about it, and things like that absolutely will show up in their work! Humans aren't perfectly self-aware! Even ignoring "death of the author" discourse, this is basic human existence stuff! These people aren't media literate, yes, but they also aren't human literate!


Cania
@Cania

okay but like, counterpoint as someone who has archivist tendencies and doesn't really find anything interesting about transformative fan works: i think it's possible to be interested in the literal thing presented without being a ding dong about it.

archives can be an incredible way to understand a work and its place in the world. i am fascinated by wiki culture and tv tropes because there is so little interpretation happening. to me, it's a chance to see ideas ping against each other in the abstract. i love seeing connections between disparate pieces of media and theorizing why those things treat the same subject matter the way they do.

on the other hand, i have seen some of the worst possible media takes from transformative artists!! it is possible to deeply love a work and still completely miss the point.

anyway i think there's actually a ton of overlap between the transformative folks and the so-called "rivet counters." it's hard to transform something that you don't know a great amount of detail about. at the very least, it's unconvincing. and i think it's hard to be a true archivist for a work without having it change in your mind as you learn about it.

my point is that the transformative/archival divide is not only untrue (surprise, this enby hates binaries) but it also has nothing to do with whether someone is capable of understanding a work. media "literacy" (scare quotes because i think this term is very poorly defined) is just totally separate from how one enjoys a work of fiction.

it's pretty frustrating to write off a whole group of people as "not human literate" too.

EDIT: Further reading on how archival work is transformative: https://cohost.org/Toyguin/post/6461094-thank-you-as-someon


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in reply to @Kaden's post:

in reply to @sans-sarif's post:

*quietly raises my hand*

I am not sure if I am the kind of person you mean by "archival" - a large part of my engagement with various fandoms has been all about documenting, hunting down every detail and recording it precisely in wikis, blog posts, and the like.

For me, this comes from two places. Primarily, much of the media involved has been some flavor of live service game, often with all sorts of little discoveries to be made off of the beaten path. I'm keenly aware that one day, the game will not be around anymore - and when that day comes, I want a record of all of these neat little details that the creators poured their hearts into, so that they won't simply vanish into the void. I want them to be around for future people to see, because I've lost count of the number of times a tiny detail has inspired a whole world of speculation from me (as someone who likes to approach worldbuilding as a kind of puzzle) and I want other people to have a chance at that even when the game is gone!

So, I understand your frustration with the prescriptivists of the fandom world, but I wanted to give my 2c as someone who does work on wikis and absolutely does consider "archivist" a key part of my identity in fandom. And fwiw, I don't think there's anything wrong with like... personally approaching fiction like cartography, like mathematics, where you try to build something in as close alignment with the shape of All Things That Exactly Exist as possible - it's just an issue when this gets presented as the Only Right Way to engage!

this is a discussions of patterns of behaviour in aggregate and about tendencies. when you're at a concert and the lead singer holds their microphone towards the crowd, the aggregate result is that people start screaming the lyrics - drilling down to the individual misses the greater point

I suppose I'm inclined to approach this from several angles:

  • Is this the kind of mindset that makes up the majority of archivists - or is it a particularly loud and annoying subset? (Which, as we're all familiar, tends to be heard the most even if they are a minority.)
  • Is it helpful to approach this as a matter of transformative vs archival work, or is there a better way to slice this topic? (I am inclined to say that this is not exclusively a problem among the archivists of fandom - the deeper problem, the idea that there is One True Interpretation (Which Is Conveniently The One I Have), is something that I've seen among non-archivists as well. It's just that instead of "it's not Explicitly in the text so it's Wrong," you see things like "these characters can be read as brothers so it's Actual Incest to ship them.")

It may be that I am splitting hairs, but in general, I am increasingly cautious of painting broad strokes - it certainly is not something that any of us intend to do, but ideas run away so easily on the Internet.

A comment has been hidden by the page which made this post.

having had the time and space away from this post being the thing everyone on cohost is talking about, (y'know, "touching grass")

i don't hate archivally minded fans. i don't even dislike them. the fact that i can go onto the cultist simulator wiki and grab the names of all the lore is useful and pleasant to me as a person who likes to steal known alexis kennedy's work and change it to meet my own desires and writing in other settings.

this post was really, ultimately a 12:30 am railing against the sort of person who uses a wiki as their bludgeoning tool. not to reify "transformative work" in any more sense than i identify with the label - and definitely not to come down on either side of whether or not it is a "superior" form of fan-work, as much as i am partial to it.

i'm someone who really loves 40k. i'm someone who really loves a lot of the sorts of media that appeals to kneejerk types who get mad when you make characters not white, or not men. the sorts of people who go to the warhammer 40,000 fandom wiki and then post eyerolling emojis at me for wanting to do my own thing, and then tell me i'm a tourist in a fandom i've been in since before i hit puberty.

ultimately this post (and several of my follow-on comments) were formulated assuming no one would see them outside of my usual small sphere of people, and this went viral. this was the first post i've ever done that "did severals" on cohost, and it was definitely not intentionally. so a lot of the way i handled the attention was indelicately.

blob-holding-heart

I appreciate your reply here! It's all good - honestly, I feel like Suddenly Doing Severals is hard on a lot of people. None of us were wired for this!!!

And yeah, I definitely won't deny that there's an Obnoxious Kind Of Fan who looooves to lord Lore Knowledge over everyone else. And it's like, chill, pal! The Significance of art lies in the individual connection each person makes with it, not in having encyclopedic knowledge! It's a story, not a peer-reviewed scientific journal!

I hate how correct you are because I personally really enjoy archiving this kind of stuff. I like taking the contents of the story and putting it on display in an easy-to-digest format for people who aren't into a story to easily understand, and to potentially get into said story as a result. Unfortunately, this way of thinking does result in folks who enjoy of a piece of media to completely dismiss all fan interpretation and, for lack of a better phrase, stunt the creativity of other fans. Not only that but, as you alluded to in the middle, I also tend to not catch the themes and morals of the stories I consume. I very much take these stories at their level, and kind of treat their actions as literal in-story and rarely as thematic allegory for real life. I definitely need to re-train my brain to be more creativity-focused and less fact-focused, but at least I can agree that most archivist fans like myself kinda suck the fun out of what Transformative Fans are capable of by being so literal-minded.

many of us do a little of both, wikis can be invaluable references for details you half remember or when you need some reference screenshots. there's just certain communities that are very up their own ass about being better than that other group that's doing fandom wrong.

A comment has been hidden by the page which made this post.

I just gotta blurt this out: After the Silent Hill Wiki admin entered the picture, there should have been no one left still believing wikis to be the means by which people create (sorry - "find and record") "the objective and true interpretation of art".

in reply to @Cania's post:

I want to write a reply to your chost because I disagree with you on pretty major assumption, but I want to ask for you consent first, because otherwise that would be rude. So do you allow me to write a reply?
It has happened in the past that I asked someone that question, they told me no, and I abstained from writing my comment. I promise to respect your wishes and if you allow me, to stay polite.

Thank you. I always prefer to ask rather than be sorry. Also, uh, I worked on that post for so long I didn't see the new edit where someone had the same idea but went in a completely different direction.

BOY HOWDY WE MADE A POST AND APPARENTLY IT'S THE POST OF THE DAY. HI. I WANTED TO MAKE SOME EXTENSIONS THAT ARE IN GOOD FAITH:

  1. IT'S BIMODAL, NOT BINARY, YES. THOUGH IT ALSO WASN'T OUR WORDS - SOMEONE FOUND THE ORIGINAL POST SOMEHOW WHICH IS BOTH USEFUL AND ALSO DRAWS ATTENTION TO WHERE THE POST WAS COMING FROM (A DISCUSSION AS TO WHY REDDITORS TENDED TOWARDS BASHING ON TUMBLR USERS)

  2. I'D LIKE TO BE CLEAR THAT WE DIDN'T DISCUSS ANYTHING TO DO WITH THE FAILINGS OF TRANSFORMATIVE FAN CULTURE BECAUSE THIS DISCUSSION WAS STARTED FROM WHERE IT DID (THE TWITTER SNIPPET POSTED). SWOZ FELT IT WAS SUPERFLUOUS AND LOST THE TRACK OF THE POINT THAT VE WAS TRYING TO ARTICULATE.

  3. BY THE SAME EXTENSION: THIS POST IS COMING OFF OF US DEALING WITH 40K NERDS. IF YOU ARE UNAWARES OF THE THINGS THAT HAVE BEEN GOING ON RECENTLY WITH 40K I CAN ELUCIDATE THEM BUT I WILL ASSUME YOU ARE AWARE OF THEM. REGARDLESS - THAT SORT OF ENVIRONMENT, ALONGSIDE THE SORTS OF ENVIRONMENT THAT COME OUT OF SIMILAR COMMUNITIES (HELLDIVERS BEING ANOTHER, RECENT EXAMPLE) TENDS TO LEAVE WITH A LOT OF UNPRODUCTIVE VITRIOL THAT NEEDS TO BE DUMPED TOWARDS PRODUCTIVE ENDS.

  4. "RIVET COUNTERS" IS A PRETTY SPECIFIC ATTITUDE THAT WE'RE REFERENCING, THAT BEING PEOPLE WHO POO-POO WORKS THAT DEVIATE FROM "ACCURACY." SEE THIS RESPONSE FROM A MODEL TRAIN ENTHUSIAST TALKING ABOUT THE SPECIFIC BEHAVIOUR AND WHY IT'S DELETERIOUS TO IT'S HOBBY. IS THE WORD UNCHARITABLE? SURE, BUT THIS POST WAS BEING UNCHARITABLE ABOUT A SPECIFIC TREND OF ANTI-INTELLECTUALISM.

Hey I sure hope my post hasn't brought any unwanted attention your way! I only made it publicly rather than a comment (or the dreaded subpost) because I thought it was important to clearly express my thoughts on this to the people in my circle who had been sharing the original post.

I'm happy to admit that some people are anti-intellectuals, and there's a specific brand of that which insists on "accuracy" simply to use it as a cudgel. My biggest issue is that I don't think the split occurs across the transformative/archival line, and I don't think that alleged split is a useful thing to call out. Those people exist in all sorts of spaces, and with all sorts of mindsets, and they're a huge pain in the ass. But IMO they're not more or less prevalent in what we're calling "archival" spaces.

I'm also skeptical of the transformative/archival line in the first place but that's a relatively minor point of contention. I can see the usefulness in differentiating those types of work, if not the people who do them.

All that said, I was much more irritated at the post that essentially said a load of people "aren't human literate" simply because they have a hard time understanding the difference between intent and outcome. That seemed like a big swing at a fairly large group of people that implies they aren't able to understand any other humans. That was what spurred my post - otherwise, I probably would have just let it go.

In any case, I am glad to contribute to a conversation, and I hope this hasn't caused too much stress. I personally plan on silencing this post after tomorrow - I'm waiting on a reply to a comment I made, but after that I don't think I want to mess with it anymore.

And yeah, dealing with 40K nerds sounds incredibly stressful. I don't know the full context (and it's outside my wheelhouse) but I can imagine it's....trying lol