• it/its

// the deer!
// plural deer therian θΔ, trans demigirl
// stray pet with a keyboard
// i'm 20 & account is 18+!
name-color: #ebe41e
// yeah



ring
@ring

At the risk of jumping in on the "what does The Left have to offer young men" thing, probably the most critical thing I learned that led to me being happier now than basically any other time in my life was that nobody is going to think better of me if I don't do things.

Now, there's a chance that people may hate the things I do. But no one--whether they hate me, love me, or just don't give a shit about me--is ever thinking, "Say what you want about Ring, but I respect him for never doing something he wanted to and reminding me that he doesn't exist solely to tickle my fancy."

Let me back up: from about 18-21 years old I spent a lot of time on 4chan, which was really bad. I'm fortunate that I never got into any chud shit; I was operating under the tragically misguided idea that there was something poignant about the moments of sincere human vulnerability in the anonymous communication there that made it worthwhile. We were all invisible, so it was safe to express our real feelings. The missing piece in my understanding of the dynamic was that

the only fucking danger of being mocked, belittled, harassed, and torn apart for our vulnerability and sincerity came from each other.


If you were Online before 2010ish, you may remember when wanting attention for any reason was the worst goddamn thing you could do on the internet, especially if you were a woman or perceived as one. If you weren't there for the "there are no girls on the internet" era, the logic went something like this: girls who are at all worthwhile as people will never tell anyone that they're a girl online, because they just want to be treated like normal people. Therefore, revealing that you're a woman online is inherently attention-seeking behavior and a manipulative attempt to wheedle special treatment and favors out of fawning men.

Being treated like a normal person usually meant just being generically harassed and put down for having any kind of self esteem or personality. It was like that across the board. If you do anything to stand out, to differentiate yourself, to express yourself--well, aren't you special? Fuck you.

It was like that in fandom, where the gravest sin you could commit was creating an original character with standout traits or creating fanworks that were too self-indulgent. Webcomics had entire blogs dedicated to hyperbolic venting about how every part of them said something damning about the creator's need for attention. If I wanted to summarize Encyclopedia Dramatica, most articles about individuals boiled down to, "This person would not be doing things I found embarrassing if they didn't have a pathological need for attention, and they should be punished for that."

Most of this vitriol was aimed at stuff you didn't have to pay to look at and people who were just doing shit for fun. The sheer audacity of being publicly seen as a doer of things, putting yourself in front of people without molding yourself entirely to please them--preferably by making sure they didn't have to acknowledge your existence--infuriating!

It's not like this ever went away, and looking back on it, no shit it leads to fascist thought traps. The entire premise of GamerGate was that women were invading gaming and using it as a vector to seek attention. Nearly every reactionary complaint about marginalized people or what they think of as the left boils down to the furious conviction that not only do we want unearned attention, but we somehow want it maliciously--to suck up all the attention in the world, to leave everyone else in shadow, and we're so bent on this that we've constructed vast conspiracies to blot out the sun.

I'm not sure when the spell broke and I stopped being frozen by the certainty that everything I did or tried to do was being judged as a pathetic attention grab. It's possible that meds and time straightened out my brain chemistry enough. But it's only recently that I recognize my subconscious thought process: If people like a thing I do, they won't be angry that I made them pay attention to it. If they don't like it, at best they'll wish I hadn't bothered. If I do nothing, I'll at least be inoffensive.

Naturally, this is bullshit. If someone sits around getting incandescently furious or having pained secondhand embarrassment reactions to everything that doesn't set their world on fire, that's actually kind of sick. Acting like some sort of tantrum-throwing boy king who pouts and flails and demands the jesters' heads when they fail to delight him is fucking pathetic. Unironically sorting everything into bins marked "based" and "cringe" exists at the exact same level of maturity and self-awareness as a child thinking everyone is judging them because their mom dropped them off at the mall.

This isn't anything new; sometimes I feel like at least 70% of human conflict has its root in some of us being so pants-shittingly terrified of their own reflections that they'll try to force everyone to live by any fucked up set of torture rules that pops into their heads rather than face their own desires. They would prefer to invent a version of the world where everyone is condemning them according to torture rules and to spend their time screaming at and hitting each other for failing to torture themselves enough if the alternative is being their authentic selves.

When we tell them they don't have to follow the torture rules, they just insist we're the ones forcing them to live by them.

The left has nothing to offer guys who are into fuckheads like Andrew Tate because he's not promising them they'll get laid or have self-confidence or whatever. Like every other right-wing self-help asshole, he's promising to give them the weapons they need to torture and murder their authentic selves. When we say they can get what they long for without mortification of the flesh and soul, they see that as a threat! We're trying to empower the attention-seeking, self-loving, sun-eating inner parasite they want so badly to kill.

If you read all of this, I owe you "Find the Meat" enrichment.


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in reply to @ring's post:

Heard someone say something to the effect of "the thing about all the people in andrew tate's audience is that they've chosen to be in andrew tate's audience" like yeah, at some level they are hearing his message and saying "yes please" and the left doesn't have a like...soft, on-ramp-y version of that message!

Like, I know for me as someone who grew up already pretty much on the trajectory to get pretty far right and did have to do a lot of the uncomfortable learning and unlearning that goes with getting off the trajectory, every single thing that helped me off-ramp was about empathy. And you CAN like…sneak empathy and humanization of the Other into stuff that is easy to consume, but it’s a lot harder to make content that the Young Men Audience In Question will engage with that does that than it is to make stuff that feeds into aggression and hurt.

YEAH and like. some of the people I've seen get out of it from the point where they're in deep actually can be reached at their lowest points by being told, "You don't have to do this anymore." But they kind of have to be on the defensive and feeling defeated and exhausted, because that's the point at which deliberately seeking out content that will reinforce their existing beliefs isn't appealing. Sometimes they'll pop up after the right suffers an embarrassing setback with posts that are like, "I'm tired and I wish I'd never been redpilled" and there's a chance they'll actually listen if you tell them that all you're asking them to do is get offline for a week and stop thinking about this shit. They don't have to come to the dark side, they don't have to change their beliefs, they can just go watch a movie or walk to the library or something and remember what being alive is like.

If people like a thing I do, they won't be angry that I made them pay attention to it. If they don't like it, at best they'll wish I hadn't bothered. If I do nothing, I'll at least be inoffensive.

this is a mentality that i'm still working to get out of my head. it's definitely stifled my progress as a game developer and artist. sometimes i look at my friends who are totally unafraid to share their art and games and i'm like what the hell, how do they do that? then i remember that they didn't grow up on 4chan lol.

thanks so much for writing this.

Oh man yeah, it's still hard for me and I have to talk myself out of it, and it's so hard not to feel bitter about wasted time. But at the very core I think the real purpose of this way of thinking is it's a remarkably effective way to get individual people to voluntarily leave behind zero evidence that they existed and had unique thoughts and experiences.

I think it's one thing to say, "It's okay to be cringe! It doesn't matter what other people think about your stuff!" because while that's true, very few of us are happy with the idea of yodeling into the void while other people pity us. But that's so rarely what's actually happening!! Nearly every Successful Creative Professional I know took forever to get noticed. Some of the most influential folks have like 100 Twitter followers and will post their mindblowing pro concept art like "I just did this piece for [Known Video Game] :)" and get 5-30 likes. It's totally arbitrary!

I feel so so strongly about this because as soon as I shifted from thinking, "I should just do work for myself :)" (true) to "I have been deliberately encouraged to self-select out of visibility by people who wish I didn't exist" it was like OH. OH SHIT. and I think now however embarrassing I feel about my stuff I can at least fall back on spite. :V

THANK YOU for reading and I am cheering you on!!!

So well-put. Ive been vaguely following this discourse on youtube for a day or two and no one has yet brought up this point, tho some have gotten close. Maybe the conversation about "self-help" is going in circles bc we are working off completely incompatible definitions

Thank you and tbh this was born from frustration over that incompatibility; it feels just like when pundits concern-troll over progressives not appealing to conservative voters. The conversations with them are so fucking blatant on this front that the replies to basically any You Must Follow the Torture Rules post by a right-wing influencer are full of leftists going "hey man you really don't have to do this shit, have you tried getting some fresh air" and counter-replies from chuds going, "NO because we can only breathe NUCLEAR FALLOUT thanks to your WOKE TYRANNY."

It's honestly weird seeing these guys turn toward tradlife stuff where they're wistfully talking about living in a dirt cottage in the Alps, because there's a germ of what I think is real longing there. It's just that I'm pretty sure most of us would just tell them, "Sounds chill man, you should go do that" while the people they idolize tell them it's beyond their reach forever, and their contempt for anyone they find disgusting is so extreme that they'll happily pretend it's the other way around.

Our values are entirely different. They aren't happy just living in the world because they want to rule it. There's plenty of evidence to suggest that people can disengage with that and recover a healthier understanding of happiness, but IMO the purpose of this kind of "why can't we reach them??" discourse is always always to make it our responsibility to adopt their values so they don't even have to consider ours.

Honestly? This

This isn't anything new; sometimes I feel like at least 70% of human conflict has its root in some of us being so pants-shittingly terrified of their own reflections that they'll try to force everyone to live by any fucked up set of torture rules that pops into their heads rather than face their own desires. They would prefer to invent a version of the world where everyone is condemning them according to torture rules and to spend their time screaming at and hitting each other for failing to torture themselves enough if the alternative is being their authentic selves.

is a sub-thesis of all my studying of American food and diet culture. I'm currently studying whether it might partially be an off-shoot of both secularized and religious Protestantism.

Thank you for this essay! It was a good read and something I think about a lot. (I was never on 4chan myself but I have spent a lot of time observing the ways it has spilled out onto the rest of the internet.)

YESSS one of the things I didn't get into because it's. A Lot. is how this kind of thinking completely fucked my relationship with food (which was already bad) and how 4chan's /fit/ board was basically no different from the pro-self harm "communities" on Tumblr and Twitter. It's why I know nobody is immune to that kind of mindset, regardless of their politics, because when you don't have confidence that you can do anything good, "I have the strength and willpower to hurt myself for this" is a perversely comforting thought. I would be really, really interested to see the results of your studies on this.

Thank you for reading and for your thoughts!!

Thinking about how the internet was made me glad I missed the real bad on-ramps in 2006. I avoided a lot of the "sincerity bad" sentiment, which seems like it was often followed by expressing any interest in something that's outside that "based" field had to be disarmed with ironic distance. It sucks that an entire generation+ of people were conditioned to think "Liking this thing and admitting it is Bad, actually".

Yeah. It feels cyclical, in a way; I remember being deeply relieved when I got on Tumblr in 2013 or so that people were much more openly sincere about liking things and enjoying things, and now a lot of those same demographics--if not the exact same people--are doing the "ugh why are you being so weeeeiiiiird" stuff. But there are so many folks aware of that shift that it's also being identified and discussed fairly quickly.

honestly thanks so much for posting this, it really deeply resonates with my experience growing up online including being on 4chan from 2008-2013 as an adolescent...

I'm not really creative, but this mindset has had such a grip on me that I've barely even engaged with any form of social media. Even on 2010 twitter I couldn't even write harmless tweets about "what I did today" without looking back and reading my own post as "cringey attention seeking" and wanting to delete it.

Throughout the years I've managed to find people where I felt comfortable being sincere with which is good, but even today I see people online or in my workplace being able to just put themselves out there with no shame and it just astounds me, like they exist in a different realm, I envy them.

It's really good to call this mindset out and examine the culture it created, which honestly still exists today just in different forms, the whole "Cringe/Based" dynamic is still so ingrained in Twitch culture to say the least.

Thank you again

I'm both happy that this post resonated with a lot of people and sad that so many of us have had similar experiences. Twitch culture reminds me a lot of 4chan, yeah--it has that same sense of sincerity only being safe as blips in a sea of ironic group catchphrase repetition, where you're "in" if you know how and when to disappear into the chorus.

Thank you for reading, and I'm hoping it keeps getting better for all of us in time. 💙

I mean this is what the left has to offer people! You can be free! Free of capitalism, free of oppression! There's no version of the fascist message because the fascist message is 100% of the time "social violence and domination and oppression is good, actually"

This is why I think anyone who pretends to take this question seriously--as though we're all saying "would you like to be kicked in the nuts for the glory of the feminist agenda, man-thing?" and not "would you like to never have to worry about whether or not you can afford food again?"--probably needs to be shoved in a locker.*

*or something

LIKE I KNOW there's no way anyone saying this stuff is doing it in good faith because literally every argument with the right is like "I can call you slurs and say that I think you should die but if you tell me I'm mean you're oppressing me" but to even entertain "what are we offering them" as a serious question you have to pretend that you have never heard or read a single sentence from a leftist.

tbh a lot of the, I guess, "pop feminist" spaces online around 2010 very much did have an undertone of "haha I wish all men would die... just kidding... unless???".

there's also stuff like this article where a woman describes herself as yelling at her husband about how she wishes all men would die for thirty minutes. this is horrible behavior, and she never really does any reflection on it!

the ideal of leftism is that "you don't have to go hungry", sure. but the practice of leftist discourse online can be horrid.

The thing is that I'm pretty sure every single one of us has come across any amount of truly bad shit and people treating other people like trash even when they claim to have politics that revolve around kindness and empathy, and every one of us who is still here nevertheless decided we agreed with the the ideal enough to make the world a better place.

I have heard transphobic shit from leftists. I have heard homophobic shit from leftists. I've heard racist and misogynist and just plain vicious shit from leftists. Some of the worst people I have ever met claimed to be leftists and that doesn't mean that leftism doesn't offer me anything.

This post is specifically about political influencer concern trolls popping up to say that men flock to guys like Andrew Tate because he tells them how to get laid and have self-esteem while we offer them nothing. Since nobody can force all members of a political ideology to not be pieces of shit online--and because online discourse very much rewards being a piece of shit--all of us have to find our own moral grounding.

These guys are consistently treated like tiny babies whose values are made of wet clay that can be molded by whoever waves the biggest, most colorful lollipop in front of them first. That may be true, but if so I would argue that it makes them anything but worth courting.

You escaped the black hole, and I'm glad you did. But that doesn't mean that the people that didn't are 'tiny babies'. Some people genuinely do manage to work their way out of poverty via hard work, but that doesn't mean poor people are lazy.

At an individual level, it definitely makes sense to blame a person for falling into Tate's orbit. But if hundreds of thousands, or millions, or whatever, of people are doing this then it makes no real sense to blame them at an individual level; it's a systemic problem, and so it has have systemic causes and systemic solutions.

I think there's also a huge difference between "things will be better in the anarchist/communist/whatever utopia" and "here are steps you can take to make things better for yourself now by becoming a Alpha Male Sigma Bro".

And it's not just 'assholes online'; the article I linked was approvingly tweeted out by Grinnell, where the author used to be a professor. All the voices I saw saying "hey this is really fucked" are dipshit conservatives. I'm not trying to blame this specific article, but I do think there isn't nearly enough criticism of these kinds of toxic tendencies from leftists, which means that the only people that criticize them are the right.

My premise is: if you are presented with two ideologies, and both are mean to you (because the right is absolutely vicious toward even the people who follow it), and you choose one of them? You probably like the ideas that one espouses and were never going to join the other regardless of how well they treat you.

Again: I am specifically talking about the people who come out saying shit like, "Andrew Tate appeals to young men because he offers them the things they want" while pretending the left is offering them nothing, as though we have to go out and hold their hand and lead them to every idea the left has ever had. That is treating them like babies.

These people know what the left is about! They've been told thousands of times! And they have willfully chosen to hate all of it.

I feel like this is a point to be made about people who are otherwise well-meaning but maybe not that engaged, who are going to disengage from leftist politics if they feel attacked. I get tired having this conversation with them, but there's a pragmatic angle there. There is nowhere to go with the guys I'm talking about until they decide they're done with this shit. Because they will laugh in the face of kindness, compassion, and understanding, having allied with the "kindness, compassion, and understanding are for cucks" faction.

i think one of the things that the left doesn't really offer men is a space for men. like, there's /r/menslib and a few other spaces, but there really aren't places that are explicitly dedicated for men to talk about men things like there are for women. and the idea is often reacted to with hostility.

(i also think that the trend from the early-mid 2010s in online pop feminism to say "kill all men XD male tears XD XD wow why are you so mad you little MANCHILD NECKBEARD" was massively corrosive.)

Absolutely none of us have ever built spaces for ourselves without facing hostility, often from people who are supposed to support us. It sucks when it happens. We are allowed to be hurt by it and to say that it should be different and to cut people out of our lives if they can't summon the most basic respect and compassion for us. And then we have to do what every other group of people with their own space does, and build it if we want it.

Do Tate and the alt-right offer ready-made communities for discussing Men Things? Sure! The men things they talk about are fucking awful and the advice they give each other paints a vision of a world where you have to be perfect and ruthless to achieve anything. They self-flagellate and hold themselves and each other to impossible standards. The only comfort and security the right offers them compared to the left appeals to desires the left can never fulfill, because we're committed to abolishing the need for them.

This post is very strange to me! I've been off and on the internet even as early as 2004 (lol I just had to look up when Neopets added a premium tier to date that). I don't think I ended up in your circles though! I went on 4chan a few times but never saw a reason to stick around, it already had a pretty toxic reputation everywhere else I went. I think mostly I went places that didn't tend to appeal to teens, I spent a decent amount of time on Yahoo Answers and other places which weren't very internet-culture-for-internets-sake. It felt weird watching all of that from a distance, like guys, you're really going to be edgelording about what's cringe or not from your ivory tower on the internet? it's you, you're cringe, nobody cares, real life people don't even use the internet, anyone whose opinion actually matters can't even hear you.

So why it's strange to me, then: I still have this exact complex, developed entirely offline lol. I think, in hindsight, I microcosm'd the paradox of tolerance. I don't easily feel disgust, but I tolerated people who did, and it's made my life worse trying to tiptoe around it. (gonna accept as a first principle that disgust is the foundation of reactionary thought, and even outside of politics it leads to insufferable assholes.) and now people are like "why are you so scared of doing anything" when they're the exact people who judge others for doing anything. So I think I need to make moves to get that kind of person out of my life. I used to have a great sense of humor, finely tuned to jeer people with that kind of intolerance, and I probably should have realized something was up when I started spending time with people who never found that funny, honestly. I don't even think these are actually bad people, but they're definitely bad for me, just fundamentally incompatible with who I want to be as a person.