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Words are my favorite stim toy


kojote
@kojote

Furry is doing AI Writing Discourse, which definitely seems fun and like something I want to get in on, because unlike with, say, AI-generated imagery, writing is something I’ve been doing for twenty years and enjoy, at least in theory. So. You know.

More to the point, I guess, I think the arguments against using AI are pretty unconvincing, but I think they’re bad in a way that is perhaps instructive, or that we are probably going to have to come to terms with.

I wrote the first short story I ever shared with other people back in college. At that time, I had a word processor, and what I’d do was I’d retype the section I was working on, take it to the cafeteria, edit it while I ate dinner, and then retype it again the next day.

I do recommend that everyone try writing something with some degree of physicality to it at least once. If your handwriting sucks, like mine, then use a word processor or a typewriter; there’s something unique, I think, about physically marking up a piece of paper, or manually correcting your errors.

Of course, I don’t do that anymore. The aesthetic advantages of typing out stories are significantly outweighed by the ease of use of Scrivener—being able to cut and paste things without scissors, for one, to say nothing of being able to create hyperlinks between submissions, or directly version them, or compile them into new formats.

So, what we consider to be the acceptable frontiers of writing technology is a moving target, obviously. Is AI different?

Let me take a step back.


SoFurry bans the use of any AI-generated content in submissions. No clarification is made on this. At least in theory, this would presumably apply to stories containing characters with names produced by online tools, or stories with worldmaps created by fantasy map generators.

But, you know, I think obviously if somebody reports a story as containing a character with a generated name, we’re not going to remove the submission, on the grounds that that clearly isn’t the intent.

Writing Dog Patreon backers have access to the tool I use to procedurally build new words in a language based on the existing language. Those are languages I created myself, and a tool I created myself. That seems like it should fly under basically any metric, even though that is, technically, generated text.

More to the point, I am certain that the automatic suggestions produced by spelling and grammar checkers are probabilistic. Formally speaking, any AI content would have to extend to anyone who ever took a computer’s recommendation for what word they meant to use, or what comma splice was inappropriate.

However, when I say this, I bet you’re not thinking: “wow, what a good point.” You’re thinking: “that’s asinine. Obviously spellcheck is different. That’s not what anyone means when they say ‘AI.’” Of course not. I agree. Indeed, maybe everyone agrees.

But.

Consider an argument from plagiarism grounds—i.e., that the central problem with LLMs like GPT-4 is that their training data was collected without the consent of those whose material was used. This can be extended not just to generative AIs but also to large-scale “big data” projects doing, say, sentiment analysis on a body of work.

Set aside whether or not this is legally acceptable. I think that it is, at least, a coherent and reasonable moral proposition to say that you shouldn’t use other people’s things without compensation or at least consent. It would, therefore, not be improper for your website to ban any AI-generated content to protect the intellectual property of artists.

On the other hand, I would be astonished to learn that the data behind Microsoft Word’s autocorrect is exclusively public domain, or exclusively sourced from a text library created with the explicit, informed consent and compensation of the work’s creators—again, setting aside the legal angle; I presume a good chunk of data collected from Office users is covered under the EULA, but we’re talking about the moral aspect here.

If the objection is that machine learning uses human creations without the consent of the humans—not with some artifact of that machine learning, but the fact that their creation implicitly requires some degree of plagiarism—then, from a consistency perspective, only human edited work is permissible, too.

Which, you know, sounds ridiculous. But is it ridiculous because some kinds of uncompensated, unacknowledged transformation of someone else’s work are objectively okay, or is it ridiculous because spellcheck has been a feature of word processing for decades and the benefits to writers significantly outweigh the drawbacks that some people might not want to be part of a word prediction model but are included in it anyway?

Perhaps it’s somewhere between the two. This is why I think the argument that OpenAI is “stealing from” artists is… unpersuasive, to say the least. It is even more unpersuasive specifically in a fandom that so readily embraces fanfiction. SoFurry does not ban fanfic, and, like… of course we don’t? It’s almost integral to the furry experience.

So that’s not to say that I think furry websites should ban fanfiction. But I think a site or publication that specifically declaims against machine learning as theft while permitting fanfics—or carving out exceptions for certain kinds of fanfiction, or borrowing certain elements from the work of others—is not acting from a sincere perspective of respecting the sanctity of intellectual property; they’re acting from the perspective of disliking GPT-4.

For similar reasons I don’t really think privileging the purity of human creativity—the idea that artists using AI tools are not really artists—is particularly persuasive either. Creating a good story purely through generative AI is not easy; it requires a lot of work, and skills that I don’t personally have. Using those tools effectively is a talent, and that talent is probably itself creative.

To be clear, that doesn’t mean “you need to accept it.” You should be able to run things the way you want. Banning AI is clearly what the SoFurry userbase wanted. A poetry zine should absolutely be able to say that all their submissions must rhyme, or add that couplets and doggerel don’t count even if I might disagree. A themed anthology should absolutely be trusted with the judgment call of what counts as fitting that theme. Art and literature websites should be able to say “no AI-generated content” whether or not that position is internally consistent or has clearly defined boundaries.

To me, the problem is twofold.

One, I think that as a general rule we should be careful with the moral arguments ascribed to creativity—what creators “should” or “shouldn’t” do, or what constitutes being an artist. If machine learning tools are morally bad, as opposed to simply “against the rules,” then creators who use them are, by extension, immoral.

Right?

I’m fine saying that if your creative process involves torturing animals or throwing rocks at passing automobiles, that’s morally suspect and probably it’s safe to say you shouldn’t do that. Please don’t do that. But we’re not talking about throwing rocks at cars, are we?

We are, at best, in a nebulous area analogous, I suspect, to the “no ethical consumption under capitalism” one, turned on its head. Should writers use open-source tools instead of Word or Scrivener? Should writers not talk about their coffee habit unless the coffee is sustainably sourced using fair labor practices? I mean. Maybe! I could entertain that argument.

But considering there is no accepted standard of what even constitutes art—the extent to which pop art is legitimately transformative or simple plagiarism, for example—I don’t think “models based on the work of others are by definition ethically unacceptable” is on safe ground.

Two, by extension, a discussion should happen around this, and I think whatever else can be said it is correct to say that the conversation is overheated. One of the first replies to someone saying the conversation is overheated over on Twitter was a “hey, [unrelated person], just thought you should know this person is saying something bad” callout.

To be clear, that kind of juvenile behavior is not the norm and I don’t want to tar everyone with that brush. But the moral framing has made it extremely easy for people to say very ridiculous things. If you read someone talking about their writing process and you feel compelled to posit, for example, that it’s the kind of language bigots use to justify racism, you know… go outside for a bit, my friend. You have been online Too Much.

We have all been online Too Much.

So when I say that the arguments against using AI are bad in an instructive way, what I mean is that I think they illustrate the extent to which the decision is going to be personal, and the lines will be fuzzy. For example, I think basically everyone agrees that a story straight from ChatGPT should be considered a step too far, and basically nobody thinks that spellcheck is a step at all, let alone a dubious one.

But if the red squiggly lines are allowed, what about using a tool like Grammarly? Is it fine to use storytelling dice to come up with an idea for a scene, or is it only permissible if I credit the creator of the dice, or is it never okay? Can I have moodboards with copyrighted content in my outline, or does that make my story compromised by art theft, too? Can I use AI to create a summary blurb for the story? What about alt-text for an image?

What if I have a hard time visualizing characters, so I use Midjourney to create one as a reference? What if I get stuck and ask ChatGPT for ideas—can I ever transform those ideas enough to make them my own? Can I put a character’s minced oaths and spoonerisms into GPT-4 and ask it to come up with a few more I can pepper into their dialogue?

I do not think there is a “good” answer to where that line is. I am not convinced that any single person I know would agree with every single one of my own stances on those. Which, I think, gets both to why extremely hardline arguments about the inherent turpitude of AI are unhelpful, and why it is necessary to acknowledge an ongoing conversation and to acknowledge that there is a degree of unproductive hostility that produces genuine chilling effects.

And what about the arguments for using machine learning in writing? Why am I not talking about them? Are they better? I mean I think the answer is ‘no,’ but with the exception of the “you’re just afraid of AI” one—which is silly and bad for the same reason “you just don’t care about plagiarism” is—they’re of a different kind.

Generally, in my opinion, it’s that they’re unfalsifiable. Will ChatGPT change the field of creativity forever? I don’t know. Who can evaluate that? What is the criteria by which I could agree or disagree that it is, in fact, the way of the future? That’s a matter of opinion.

So is “I find ChatGPT useful.” If you think that AI-driven code review makes you a better programmer, or helps you when debugging, who am I to say “no it doesn’t”? In the writing case, if you find conversations with an LLM-powered chatbot or storyboarding with an AI tool inspirational, I mean, there is no fixed standard for what constitutes valid creativity. Maybe it’s part of your process!

It’s not part of mine, but y’know, to each their own, right? Alcohol is so ingrained in the authorial persona that “write drunk, edit sober” is a truism I’ve heard at countless panels. I don’t drink when I’m writing, but I’m not going to tell you that it’s an immoral position and you’re capital-w Wrong to do it* any more than I would tell you that you must accept it as a Valid Literary Technique.

* (brb tagging other accounts to say “hey did you know [writer] is literally encouraging substance abuse, hope you don’t think that’s okay”)

And, anyway, I have another reason for focusing on the arguments against, which is my history on this website. Having gotten this far, perhaps you are even thinking: “why are you simping for LLMs, Writing Dog? I thought you hated AI” and, I mean... I do? I think OpenAI is an abhorrent company that should not be trusted with literally a goddamned thing. I think Stable Diffusion is Bad, Actually. I think it’s fine to not allow content principally generated this way and I am happy SoFurry does not do so.

In my opinion, as companies they are profoundly unethical. It is, conceivably, true that their training data counts as fair use, but I’m more concerned by the fact they don’t care. They could have ensured the content was entirely unencumbered or paid for, and chose not to because that would’ve been unprofitable, and they can get away with it.

That sociopathic disregard is what bothers me, the same way I am bothered that OpenAI doesn’t care that its product lies to people, and is being used in situations where those lies can and will cause real-world damage. I think that the largest companies involved are entirely unconcerned with ethics, full stop, in favor of blind greed that should not be encouraged or rewarded.

I am also concerned by the potential for AI to devalue creative works generally—the way the SAG-AFTRA strike seems to imply. It should be a given that artists can make effective, ethical use of artificial intelligence. It has to be acknowledged, though, that a significant use is going to be “get ‘good enough’ things for free that would formerly have required labor, so you don’t have to pay artists” and I think this is a genuine social harm.

To me, someone choosing to use Stable Diffusion to create cover art for a novel is a problem to the extent that it leads to artists not being employed to create that art. Someone using AI in a situation where this isn’t a possibility, though—I dunno, using a GAN to visualize a fantasy landscape to make the worldbuilding easier when they’re writing about it? I don’t see this as a problem.

Put another way, AI is bad because, and to the extent, that capitalism is bad. Hot take, I know. That, in my opinion, is where the actual ethical debate should lie, on the real-world impacts mediated through the lens of corporate control over creativity and the creative commons.

I am curious about the ways that people use this new generation of tools, and I think any writing community that intends to stay relevant should be curious, too. We should also be cognizant of the risks—the proliferation of explicitly derivative content by grifters, the lack of accountability of the major players in this space, the exposure of personal data or IP fed back into the models by their users.

But this isn’t a moral question, it’s a practical one. Framing it in moral terms, or terms of artistic merit, is not just wrong, it’s wrong for the worst reason: it’s unhelpful for determining any way forward, which we have to do whether we like it or not.


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in reply to @kojote's post:

i think the problem with "open, anyone with an account can submit as much as they like" style sites is that, well, you open yourself up to spam, and AI making that very easy to do has been a real problem that has impacted other websites, especially the drawing/painting-focused ones

but like you say, where do you draw the line?

It's a good point. It is, of course, possible that if those problems prove to be intractable there just is no good way to use the technology—the way I would like to have very powerful lasers, too, but I absolutely should not be allowed to have them and we all kind of know it.

I don't think we're there, necessarily, but I don't know, either.

There's two or three problems I see with Artificial Imitative generation of creative products. One, the fact that the people who own the groups creating the models are seeking to enclose more of human knowledge and vitality in this way, to profit from people while devaluing those people. Two, that part of this process is users who use the models to shit out a bunch of low quality art that looks okay on a surface level, and this piles up, polluting search results and visible media. The result is further obscuration and devaluation of human creativity. Three, the tools that exist for the "AI" generative models are designed to enable the first two things, and not the creation of novel and finished works with integrated artistic tool sets.

I've no interest in and only contempt for policing what individuals do with the tech. I just want to see the above problems addressed somehow, preferably with as much extraction and redistribution of the stolen wealth from the owning class as possible.

Yeah. As I said, I think the corporate enclosure of creative spaces is itself intrinsically a problem. That's not a problem with machine learning, specifically, or even with OpenAI as a company—it's the same problem, I would argue, as reliance on platforms whose arbitrary rule changes create meaningfully negative effects on artists.

There's also, I think, a philosophical extension of your second and third problem, which is that I don't really have a lot of faith in the ability of generative AIs to produce truly novel content. I am troubled by the prospect that, far from extending the range of what artists can do, these tools actually narrow it.

Put another way, if everyone uses Grammarly, then the "voice" of that generation of fiction authors becomes Grammarly's voice, or at least mediated by what people use, and what becomes fed back into the system as a result. It is, I think, also an entirely cogent argument those kinds of writing improvement tools also ought to be proscribed for the good of the writing community, but I don't think there's as big of a push for that.

(Possibly, even, "not as big of a push as there should be").

Yeah, fully in agreement about how this is a problem general to the society which allows private enclosure and fails to provide for the basic needs of all, not specific exclusively to certain companies. And I've set up the image generation software, and tried it out until I got to know its function. I've tested out chatGPT and read up on it. They can't create novel works, at all. To get an interesting novel work that makes any sense is still a human work; you have to roll the dice many times and curate the results. Often piece by piece, and manually editing particular bits, to get better results. This is kludging the toy into a tool; honestly it's as much effort as learning and performing other kinds of artistic expression.

I think the tools I'd like to see would be designed differently from data collection on up. The current models average out huge data sets. I want to see tools designed to be trained at home, and which are designed to act more like a smart brush than to randomly generate a whole picture. In the writing case, which are designed not to generate text (I see this as basically useless, I have things to say, the computer does not), but to analyze and coordinate it. I want to see WorldAnvil style tools but they learn about your world as you build it and so when you write a detail it alerts you if you're possibly contradicting yourself, or lists other places you've mentioned similar things, etc. Automatically organizing links between related things in the meta-narrative, etc.

The design of technology is not neutral; it gets designed for a purpose. I think the usefulness of de-noising GAN machine learning and Large Language Models are extremely limited, but the knowledge and systems underlying them could be redesigned and repurposed into something really useful.

"The design of technology is not neutral" is absolutely a good way of putting it, both from the intent and the actual design and production.

Like, on the one hand, if OpenAI wanted to sell a version of ChatGPT to, I dunno, the health care field there would've been nothing stopping them from training it exclusively on peer-reviewed journal articles, specific to the use-case in question, except that this would've been cost prohibitive in terms of resources and time. They chose not to.

I am a believer in combining writing and technology. I've given panels before where I talk about 3D printing objects from stories and taking lessons about where the story should go from that. One of my ongoing projects is a versioned encyclopedia so that readers can choose unspoilered content based on what story or part in the timeline they've already read to get caught up on it.

In part, I suspect that “real authors”—I am definitely not that—are definitely going to wind up using AI extensively. I'm sure it will be helpful to analyze market trends and to understand what resonates with readers, or as you say to look at your own work for insights that absolutely might not be clear to you otherwise.

Or... God. I'm not a very good programmer, so, when I talk about my word generation tool, what I do is an n-character Markov prediction for a specified n. i.e., at 5 characters, given "speci" what letters probabilistically follow that?

I have a few different dictionaries analyzed like that, so I can say, basically, "create words that look like a combination of Welsh and Arabic" (sample words: walitay, beryer, afaladayn, gwadaw). Imagine if instead of a naïve character prediction model I was able to derive underlying patterns about the lemmas themselves!

(The Markov-based tool is so, so much more useful than the one I'd built using an actual neural net, presumably given the small sample size).

I am sure that writers are going to be doing interesting things with tools like these, things I can't even really imagine, and I think that will be cool. It's totally valid, I think, to be excited by that, even as it is also totally valid—indeed, I would argue, necessary—to be skeptical of companies like OpenAI and their business practices, and on the impact to writing as a profession.

My hottest take:

This is kludging the toy into a tool; honestly it's as much effort as learning and performing other kinds of artistic expression.

Yeah. I have done that. In terms of using generative AI to produce work in good faith, I do not really understand who the target audience is. The last time I seriously tried using my tool to write a story, it required 216 revisions to produce a 2700 word story, with well over half of the words generated along the way being discarded. That took basically a full day, to write an extremely simple 2700 story.

So I think, on the one hand, it would have to be for someone who views themselves as good at editing but doesn't enjoy the actual process of writing, and is willing to invest a massive amount of time in working with a writer who is dedicated to plodding along with whatever prompt they're given but isn't especially creative. And, yeah, there you get outside the entropy box by injecting new human creativity in the form of the editor's input.

The hot take is that this is a lot of work, definitely not for everyone—as I said, I don't have the skills—and honestly closely parallels the discussion people have over modern art. Down to the same, “that's not art, anyone could pickle a shark and put it in a gallery” attitude to it.

Which is not an absolution of artists using generative AI, any more than it's an absolution of modern art, any more than it's a condemnation of either. But I suspect the overlap of people who are dismissive of both is... high.

I have read and understood and largely though not entirely agreed, and I don't have much else to say, just want to thank you for this much deep thought on it that you have shared.

I'll also re-emphasize the non-neutrality of technology, because I meant that in an ideological sense primarily, though it is generally applicable. Always ask "cui bono?"

i take a sick joy in the growing realization by these companies that as they try to reign in these gAI, they get worse and worse. also that pre-2021 datasets are the only things mostly not tainted by low effort generated content.

i also have a lot of thoughts that i’m working on writing down bc i sit in a spot where one friend group is writers and artists and the other friend group are deep in tech culture (which is more fragmented the closer they get to understanding how LLMs/SD work). i am even friends with someone whose work on proving the performance of certain statistical analysis for language models was possible at scale (he is horrified what it has led to, classic computer science researcher tbh).

i think this is really well thought out and i am glad i read the complete thing even though the focus on the weakness of the arguments against made me worried in the beginning.

Yeah, somebody pointed out that pre-2021 text is like low-background steel now, a diminishing resource.

I am the AI person in my team at work. We don't do much with AI, which means that 98% of my job there is listening to some Director ask "hey, can we use ChatGPT to do—" and me saying "no, sir, that would be an extremely bad idea and here's why."

I would like this fad to pass by, but I suspect we are not close to that yet.