oh god how did this get here i am not good with computer

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The scenes with the shark are usually very intense and disturbing.

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I use Arch BTW

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Fun fact: Neo-Nazi dipshit cartoonist Stonetoss is in fact Hans Kristian Graebener of Spring, Texas


jake2
@jake2

that post about the ai autofellatio problem or whatever its called was well-timed to show up on my dash because i was thinking about ai art on my drive home and that's part of it.

AI art generators give you what you ask for, in the most generic terms possible, and nothing more.

Looking at the process for creating AI art, it's a lot less like any other form of visual art, and a lot more like the actions of a patron describing a commission. At their most complex, they approach something like a comic book writer describing a scene to their artistic partner. Of course this writing is a form of art! It's the form of art I do most frequently! I describe myself as a writer more than an artist, but I feel like most AI artists would take offense to being called that.

Writing is a kind of art, of course, but saying "writer" first helps describe what part of the collaborative process I'm involved in. I describe concepts, visuals, and stories; and my partner interprets them, adds to them, and makes them real. I think AI art is missing the interpretation and addition. that's the most valuable part of the process. that's what makes it valuable to make collaborative visual art instead of just writing it and releasing it as prose.

AI gives you exactly what you ask for, and nothing more. if you ask for colonel sanders as mega man it will give you that in exactly the most generic way possible, mixing concepts of colonel sandersness with concepts of mega manness. a human artist will think about what it would mean for colonel sanders to be mega man (it would mean "haha thats funny," i imagine), and which concepts to mix specifically. what mega man design mixes the best with a 19th century poultry salesman? what art style enhances the humour most? even unconsciously, they add. maybe the way they draw hair is taken from an old, half-remembered anime. ai can't add those things, that aren't related directly to mega manness or colonel sanderness. even those that are, like which mega man design to choose, it wont pick unless you tell it to. instead, itll give you a generic mixture of all of them. the mean design, but not one that was ever real. And now, that generic recreation gets added to the data pool of mega men, further genericizing future works.

I just can't understand why. Why would you want to get rid of the human, except to cut costs? It makes it all so much worse in the end. And I won't act like I can always tell the difference - sure, they tend to not do hands, partially because they don't understand the mechanics behind them, but in some fields its impossible to tell - but once I do know, it all feels worthless. I can't wonder anymore what the artist thought when deciding this element would go here instead of there, because they didn't decide it. I can't feel the passion from the way they move their brushstroke, because they didn't. It isn't their creation. Their creation is the hidden prompt, and the AI artwork is just the least creative interpretation of that prompt. Why not just give me the prompt? My imagination can fill in the rest, and our connection would be stronger for it. Why not work with a human artist, who can make your prompt more than it was, raise it even higher through the strength of their own experiences? If you don't want to connect with others, do you even really want art?


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in reply to @jake2's post:

This may look like a post about algo art, but it's clearly just an attempt to get people to draw Colonel Sanders as Mega Man :host-evil:
(Source: I now have a very strong urge to attempt drawing this prompt)


On a more serious note, now that I'm actually thinking about how I'd go about it, I've already run into of a part of the collaborative process an algorithmic image generator can't really participate in, which I guess you might call the "counter-prompt". I.e., the algorithm can never come back to you with its ideas on how to tweak your prompt (because it has none), it can only, like you say, follow your prompt generically, and any deviation is pure random chance based on its dataset. It can't ask you "Hey, what would you think if instead of making this Mega Man specifically, I tried making Colonel Sanders into his own distinct Robot Master? It might take a little longer since I'd have to come up with some new design features, but I think it might look better in the long run." The generator would never think about this because it can't think; at most it might accidentally draw elements from other Mega Man characters (not even necessarily from the same series within the franchise, kinda like what you said about the "mean [Mega Man] design"), and it won't do so with any thought about whether those design elements add to the Sanders-ness of the design because, again, it has no thoughts.

You're right, it's absolutely about cutting costs, be it financial, or just the time/availability of an artist with the skills to do what you want. Which isn't entirely just an evil capitalist thing.
I keep being reminded of the holodecks in Star Trek, and the characters just walking in, giving a few descriptions to the computer, and instantly having an interactive scene & NPCs. And yeah it's rarely perfect (and usually malfunctions and tries to kill them, but that's another story), but if IRL AI has even a fraction of that potential, it's a really powerful tool for people who don't have the time or skill to become artists, or access to real artists, to see their creativity expressed.

AI is very much not a holodeck, though. Unlike the holodeck, it can never give you more than what you ask for. Sherlock Holmes is going to have no intuition, no pithy quip to give to Data, he's just going to be making fairly pedestrian conclusions in an approximation of Conan Doyle's character. As for the latter, I'm not much of an artist myself. But that's why I write, and work with an artist to get my comics made. I don't really find that AI art does allow anyone to see their creativity expressed. Their creativity is expressed through the prompt they give to the AI, the actual AI result is far less interesting than what the prompt already calls to the imagination.

While I mostly agree with your main point, I feel the need to push back a little against part of your argument, specifically:

the actual AI result is far less interesting than what the prompt already calls to the imagination.

Aphantasia is a relatively common disability (per the article, apparently something like 4.7% of the general population may have it to some degree), so to say anyone who can't create visual art by themselves should either pay an artist to collaborate or just be content with the mental image in their mind's eye seems... ignorant at best? IMO, if someone is only using an image algo because they genuinely feel they have no other options for seeing what their idea looks like (moderate to severe aphantasia, not enough money to commission an artist, little to no artistic ability of their own), I think there's a case to be made that they do have a legitimate excuse to be using the algorithmic generator (granted, I think the way the ones that currently exist were made is sketchy as hell, but I'm talking about the broad concept of these algorithms here). As someone with moderate aphantasia I'm lucky I took to drawing at a very early age and stuck with it long enough that if I want to visualize something clearly I can commit it to paper, but if I hadn't I'd be SoL since I sure as hell don't have the money to pay an artist what they deserve (and as most artists will tell you, being asked for free art gets very annoying very quickly). And I'm also lucky that my aphantasia is relatively mild; some people's cases are so severe that they just don't have a functioning mind's eye. But even then, asking someone like me (i.e. with only a partial ability to visualize things) to be satisfied with my mental image feels akin to asking someone to be satisfied with imagining a burger. Fortunately I know how to make a decent burger for myself, but I'm willing to cut people some slack for going to McDonald's or Burger King or what have you if they're really that desperate and can't afford a proper burger. (Granted, there's no way to enforce "in a position to legitimately need this to see what something would look like" as a requirement for using an algo, at least not that I can think of, which still makes it a tricky situation for artists who need work to make a living.)

You talk about not having enough money to pay an artist what they deserve, but your solution involves not paying them at all, so I can't really see that as an improvement.

As far as I'm aware, aphantasia doesn't prevent someone from reading and understanding a visual description of something, which is all I'm trying to get at. The AI doesn't generate anything more visually interesting than the base concept of "colonel sanders as mega man." Even with complete aphantasia, you'd still be capable of hearing that description and thinking something like "oh, it'd be cool if he had a chicken leg for a mega blaster," which is already more than the AI gives. The AI would not show you what your idea looks like, it would show you what the least inspired possible interpretation of your description of your idea looks like. That's even more limiting than just having a textual description. I'd much rather a book to an AI-made image, it at least gives you the freedom to conceive other things.

I don't understand your burger analogy. Seems like apples to ground beef.

First, I think it's a mistake to assume that all art is (or should be) created for an audience other than its creator(s). That's not to say it never should be, but speaking as an artist, only ever drawing things with the intent of showing it to others can get pretty miserable after a while. So from that perspective, the "some hypothetical reader can read the prompt and come up with the idea of the chicken leg buster!" point doesn't really land for me, because the use-case I'm talking about as possibly acceptable (which is admittedly pretty niche and, like I said, nigh-unenforcible as far as separating it from many unacceptable use-cases) doesn't involve an outside participant. And if the sole person involved could have come up with the idea of the chicken leg buster on their own, they could just, y'know... put that in their prompt in the first place.

I think another reason this maybe doesn't ring as true for me as it might for others, setting aside my other issuse with algo images, is that there seems to be a presupposotion that all art is actively collaborative, which, as someone who's mostly just been drawing solo without asking for anyone else's input of late, doesn't really gel with my experience. I think there certainly can be value to that back-and-forth when it does occur, but I make plenty of art I'm proud of without that aspect, and my pencil sure as hell isn't inventing design elements like that (at most I might be forced to work around a stubborn eraser smudge, but my pencil is no more conscious than an algorithm, it's just more under my control as an artist than an algorithm is).

I should also maybe make clear that the hypothetical I'm presenting is one where an artist would never have been hired to begin with. If you can afford to pay an artist a reasonable amount, then yeah, pay an artist. And if you're at all planning to make money off of the image, even indirectly, pay a fucking artist! (if you can't afford to pay your workers you can't afford to be in business, etc.). But for a random person who wouldn't have been able to afford it anyway? It's "losing" a sale that would never have happened in the first place. Granted, a lot of artists do offer relatively cheap sketch commissions, and there are communities like r/CharacterDrawing on Reddit (as much as Reddit culture often irks me) where people will draw requests that interest them free of charge, but I have a hard time not seeing some value in image algos as a concept, but I'll admit it's maybe not enough to outweigh the harm they do in practice.

As far as the burger analogy, I'll admit it's a bit rough (like, what's the "normal" case there? people psychically manifesting burgers to eat??), but I guess what I was getting at is that for me, the prompts are so seldom interesting enough to warrant looking at for more than a second, exhaling through my nose (in the case of the Colonel Man prompt), and then immediately moving on and never thinking about again, because if I do stop to try and think more about it, I can't generate more of an image in my head than, like, a hazy design element here or there, such as the buster being red-striped like an oldschool KFC bucket and shooting chicken instead of energy pellets or whatever. Which for me isn't all that engaging unless I'm planning to commit those ideas to paper, but then maybe part of the issue is that the prompt in this hypothetical isn't all that interesting on its own, or maybe the issue is that despite my partial aphantasia I'm still a very visual-oriented person (being an illustrative artist and all). If the prompt is that important, though, could the writer simply not just include it with the post? (Granted, I'm not keen on algo images being paraded around as "look what I made!", but reframed in the context of "look how the algorithm interpreted my idea, which you can read for yourself!" it's a bit less objectionable.)
Going back to the burger analogy (which, being an analogy, will never be prefectly 1:1), I guess I'd say having no aphantasia at all is like having a personal chef to make burgers for you on-demand or something. (This is... not a great analogy, I'll admit, because working backwards that would really be more apt for someone who has an artist friend willing to draw whatever they want, but I digress.)

I think my last issue is also the idea that images can never serve as inspiration for further ideas and that that's somehow uniquely in the domain of words, which is, again, not at all in line with my experience as an artist. I sometimes spend longer compiling reference images for a drawing than I do actually rendering out the image on paper (and sometimes longer than that + the time to color it), and I've certainly seen images and thought "... y'know, I think I see a way to improve that design." Like say for example you drew this Colonel Sanders Mega Man prompt instead of writing it out, and incorporated your chicken buster idea into the drawing. There's not really anything stopping me from then looking at it and deciding I prefer the idea of it being shaped like a bucket that shoots chicken, and the same goes for the hypothetical aggressively mediocre algo image that probably wouldn't be much more interesting than the posterized logo version of Sanders's face plastered onto a generic Mega Man-esque figure, maybe with a tie thrown in for good measure. Algo images have as much value as algo text (at the end of the day it's basically all just autocomplete dolled up to seem fancier than it actually is), which IMO isn't much honestly, but I don't think they have no value. To me, the question is moreso "do they offer enough value to be worth keeping around despite all their problems?"

I do believe that all art is fundamentally a collaborative process between artist and audience, even if the only audience is the artist themselves. So that will likely be an impasse to continuing discussion. I believe all art is a means of communication.

Yes, you could include design elements you thought of in your prompt. But the question is then what does the AI add?

the prompts are so seldom interesting enough to warrant looking at for more than a second, exhaling through my nose (in the case of the Colonel Man prompt), and then immediately moving on and never thinking about again

This is exactly as much value as the generated image, so what is the value of generating it? Of course images can serve as inspiration for further art, but only if they contain new ideas. The image generated by the prompt contains no information that was not already contained by the prompt. I imply no valuation of text over image here, but a value of something made by a person over something made by a machine. The same would apply if instead of a textual prompt, the AI was told to merge [image of colonel sanders]Β with [image of mega man]: the output would create nothing not already contained within the input.

This is exactly as much value as the generated image, so what is the value of generating it?

Y'know, that's a fair point. I think the issue is that perhaps I've overvalued visual media here (as opposed to verbal media, using the broad meaning of "verbal" here to include written text), which is my bad. (Years of having the only thing people really compliment you about be your ability to draw will do that to a gal, I suppose.) Also, sorry if I put words at your mouth at any point, I'm still trying to unlearn some bad habits I developed on sites that encourage "winning arguments" over having, y'know, civil discussions.