Hi! We're a fairly diverse plural system with various origins and interests! ADHD, autism, likely BPD. Uhm... Yeah, gonna work on this a bit more soon?
That really doesn't like Lancer because the mecha don't actually represent or mean anything -- they're just cool robots, while in anime and manga they tend to have some kind of significance; a reason they're there beyond "robots are cool." Representing the ideal self, or escalation of conflict or armament or the will of the character and ability to change things or whatever.
Any thoughts?
Are you interested in finding another game or looking for like, an anchor point for interrogating what Mechs can “mean” in Lancer?
Either, really! I do know some other mecha games, but not a huge number, and discussing drawing meaning out of TTRPGs and treating them as art is always interesting! Also just curious on if people agree and if not what their reasons for disagreeing are.
EDIT: Sorry if that's an unhelpful answer. It's just that I genuinely didn't think about what I wanted beyond "hey, what do other people think of this idea?" and both of your suggestions are things I'd find interesting and useful.
Re: your edit, that answer was helpful in that I have a better idea of what I want to say, I’m just at work and might need some time to figure out how to answer in kind lol
Ok I’ve spent a day thinking about it and I’ll need to do some more reading to really figure this out, but it’s coming to me that the Mechs themselves are consistently a means to an end in a lot of the frogs that center around them. What that end is and how the Mech can be constructed to achieve that is the point of interest etc. but I don’t know if there are games with more than 2-players that provide the opportunity for deep engagement with metaphor that your group might be looking for. A lot of games feature tools that are ripe for exploring the relationships between war and the pilots who fight in it, but the relationships with Mechs is pretty consistently one where the Mech is a tool that needs maintenance and let’s you achieve your goals.
What goals you achieve varies, from personal liberation to world-changing violent acts. But the Mechs consistently appear as the means to whatever ends the game suggests.
We could say that in the fiction, the Mechs in Lancer are from corporate (and renegade) catalogues and that shows the power of the organizations as controlling what technology is made, but if you see any strings attached it’s because the GM will have to set that up in play; lancer does not have drawbacks or intrigue as a result of taking licences so it’s not formally instrumentalized.
You might want to take a look at the Armor Astir Demo or the Beam Saber quick start guide, and then ask your players “ok this game doesn’t provide us a metaphor for what Mechs ‘are’ as a metaphor to engage with in play. But that doesn’t mean we can’t develop the metaphor ourselves and try it out in play.”
Oh, they're not a group I might run for. They're just people whose opinions I generally respect that critique RPGs and make them.
That said... the default setting of Battle Century G Remastered has very clear meanings attached to the mecha, as does Apotheosis Drive X. (It's about how technology allows us to transcend human limitations, taken to its logical endpoint of machine and man coming together to become de facto physical gods)
Most of the people I might play with are okay with Lancer. (except for one, who dislikes Mecha RPGs that... well, effectively, that tell mecha stories. It's weird. They want pilot stats to strongly affect mecha combat, which... kind of eliminates a wide variety of actual mecha anime characters, who might have widely divergent skillsets and backgrounds, but still be good pilots. There's probably some out there that would satisfy them, but... they have a lot of other weird opinions on mecha RPGs, anyway.)
Different categories of mecha mean different things in that setting, but two major categories represent a technocratic fascism that subjugates humanity to technology and unchecked industrial growth -- made very literal by the fact that all but the lowest-level pilots are permanently integrated into their mecha as components. (Incidentally, the iconic ace pilot for the faction in question is basically "What if Daidoji Gai, but evil fascist?")
Another category -- which are sort of artificial, piloted biomechanical kaiju -- is very much symbolic of the effort to coexist with nature (altered as it is in the setting) and find a way to exist without rampant destruction of the environment and unchecked growth.
Of course, these are also very much Big Cool Fight-y robots, just... there's very clear things they represent.
I haven't really hashed out a meaning for the third major category, and maybe it doesn't so much have one baked in as the others.
Girl By Moonlight would be a game I'd look at for "Mechs with meaning", since it specifically targets that vibe, as well as Magical Girls, Magic Academy, and Persona-y type options (They're different like, playsets so they don't explicitly mix and match).
As for providing meaning in a game like LANCER, I wonder how much of that is a matter of input. Shows like Gundam or whatever, are written and designed to be used in that way. In a tabletop game, each player becomes responsible for their own character, in a way, so if you don't know how to do that sort of writing or creativity, it can be hard, especially since it has to be done with x other players within y framework setup by the GM. Some players may not feel the same freedom to explore that sort of space versus, say, just writing a short story. LANCER's base mechanics may struggle, since the mechs are designed to be easily fixable, replaceable, and swappable for given situations.
Really? When I took a look at excerpts from Girl by Moonlight, and from what I heard about it, I felt like it kind of was just vaguely "about" oppression in the abstract without having any real concrete message or themes regarding it, (in large part due to the "build your own oppression! pick from these lists!" deal it had going on) which was kind of a disappointment compared to stuff like Voidheart Symphony or Red Rook Revolt, but maybe I judged it too harshly.
It honestly kinda struck me, in its default mode, as like a worse version of the antifascist, anticapitalist (post-)cyberpunk magical girl TTRPG I've wanted to make forever but don't really know how to, but again, maybe I'm being unfair.
I mean it could be. I did a cursory glance through the playtest stuff and just gleaned the main themes, so you're probably more right!
I also did a cursory glance at some stuff people in a certain "TTRPGs as Art" Discord I'm in were sharing from it and what they were saying about it, so it's possible you're more right.
... Geez, wish I had a better answer to how to tell than buying a game I might not even like. (Love magical girls, but attempts to do stuff with them in the TTRPG space have been... mixed at best.)
I mean... it can't be as bad or as utterly terrifying as Cozy Town, at least. I... I hope???
a few thoughts:
Some very interesting thoughts! Wiggles, slightly. Sorry I don't have anything more useful to say, just tired as heck.
