the personal blog of the "no longer in their 20s" owner of the above blog, where i:
• play and write about video games (usually old ones i guess but anything goes)
• go thrifting for cool electronics / things that deserve to be tinkered with and fixed
• ignore my unimportant job as much as i can
• melt my brain with the weed (mute "#weed log" to mute me posting while high if you want)
in that order


not really nsfw but no minors please and thank



boghog
@boghog

John Romero spoke out against continues. He claimed that they killed arcade games. He's right, even though it was a slow & subtle death. The average player does not want to try to sit there & do some kinda indepth formal analysis of a game's systems, that's a privilege they'll grant to games they already like. They're there to enjoy a game, so they want clarity of vision, even if it's forceful on some level. No amount of "but 1cc's!" and "look at the score tho!!!" changes that simple fact.

I think the whole mechanic was a short sighted business decision that cost arcade genres in the long run. It's an abomination of game design and devs should completely abandon it. Thankfully this is already happening and devs are independently realizing how shitty the mechanic is, but it can't happen fast enough.

Early arcade games had no continues period - you put in a coin, played as long as you could, got a game over, and that was that. You could put in another coin and start again. But when they said "game over" they actually meant it. Most games of this type were infinitely looping and were purely about competing for scores, but not all of them. You can even see this design as late as Gradius.

I forget which game pioneered continues, but somewhere along the way games gave players the ability to pay up and restart from a checkpoint. This was a really solid compromise because while you made the game a lot easier by paying, it wasn't free - you had to pick up some basic skills to finish it. Players had to pay attention, they had to understand the basic language of the games.

All of this changed when on-the-spot continues were introduced. Now, instead of actually needing skills, players could pop in a coin and continue from where they left off. This mechanic in particular spread like wildfire and very quickly became the standard. By the 90's, it was rare to see games use checkpoint systems at all. It's easy to see why it was so influential - this was really profitable short term because the casual crowd would pour coins into the machines to see the content & ending instead of getting a single game over and leaving. But as a result, the devs started framing the games as worthless, disposable junk food. They set them up for failure long term by undermining one of the most powerful motivators for improving - completion.

This sorta stuff leads to a death spiral - the more people credit feed, the less they'll learn the language of the games, the less they learn, the more they see the games as disposable, and the more they credit feed. When this carries on for years, the reputation of the games becomes solidified, player skill/understanding stagnates, and so do the critics. The chicken really came home to roost well into the console era where arcade ports were like alien artifacts to players - they simply had no idea what to do with them. And it hit genres like beat 'em ups particularly hard, because unlike shmups which had their R-Types and Gradiuses as an anchor point, bmups were pretty much born in an era of on-the-spot continues. They had no chance to establish any kind of sizable niche because everything was against them. Devs tried to keep people in the arcades and as a result made arcadey design completely unviable outside of the arcades in the process. And eventually even inside the arcades.

It's no surprise that when indies re-implement checkpoints or force 1cc's, they tend to get quite the reputations. You might even hear some "dark souls of x" or "thinking man's x" being mentioned now and then. And even though this reputation of being too hard, too punishing, too clunky, too unfair, too oldschool, might seem bad - it isn't. It's a massive upgrade compared to how the games were seen before - as a worthless piece of junk to consume passively & discard. Arcade game devs shouldn't be afraid of scaring players, they should embrace it.

So yeah, fuck continues. Bring back checkpoints, make players feel some pain & scare the shit outta them. We should aspire to make games that are true to themselves but simply to cool to ignore. Rather than trying to dull & soften them - there's already enough of that shit out there.


HerzogZwei
@HerzogZwei

boy i think about this concept a lot in relation to Cult Classic Franchise Dead Rising

adding frequent checkpoints into your survival horror game that can rewind time to the most recent loading zone on death, or even on command, sure zaps a Hell Of A Lot of the "survival" (and some of the "horror", arguably) out of your game that was already heavily skewed into the "survival" element of survival horror to begin with

like yeah i guess it's more approachable as your day 1 launch title for the xbone (lol) but it sure sucks the feeling out


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in reply to @boghog's post:

Instead of making the game dramatically easier (like, for instance, in games where continuing gives you a full-power item and/or resets the rank), it would be interesting to have an arcade game where continues made the game harder. like, sure, use a continue, but now everything just sucks more, good luck!

My biggest issue is the forced-assist-on-continue, i.e. your character respawns and the entire screen takes damage + you get a couple weapons on the spawn spot, which heavily reinforces credit feeding. If each continue takes 10% of the boss' health bar and you are having a hard time connecting more than 2 punches at the time, why wouldn't you just use the pay-for-bomb?
SNK fighting games allowing me to pick different assists, or none, during continue, is the better way.

But also yeah, continues should bring back a bit behind, checkpoint style, otherwise it's just p2w lives and ???

In real life you had the natural desire to minimize the amount of money you spend on games so there's a reason to try but in a home setting none of this works. Hell, even in the arcades it doesn't work that well since most people will just drop a coin without really thinking too hard cuz it's not a long term thing, it's only the dedicated arcadeheads that really have to think about this shit

I think even then it becomes a weird thing because, like it or not, it is a mechanic. You totally can plan on spending an extra quarter for infinite ammo in AvP in a room you have trouble with, and the mere possiblity of that within game design sucks.

(I think AvP continues spawned you with that power up? Has been a minute!)

Alright, to take the defence of the concept, I think that limited continues are a good idea because they allow modulation on the point beginner and expert disagree the most : the vitality a character should have. Like, if streets of rage 2 didn't have continues, I think the developer would have compromised by having by default the character have the equivalent of 10 lives or something.

I also like when continues are used to put focus on a specific aspect of a game, like sin & punishment giving you an extra one every 100 enemies killed to reward you trying to hit the most target possible even if you don't care about score because you can't 1CC, or sonic 2 giving you extra continue depending on your end of stage total bonuses (they doesn't technically use on the spot continues but you get the idea)

That's what difficulties are for, look at Final Vendetta where the default gives you constant extends whereas the hardest mode locks you to arcade live counts - it makes perfect sense. And it sucks anyway, I legit think players will have more fun with infinite continues + checkpoints in SOR4 than limited on-the-spot continues in SOR2, in terms of engagement/fun challenge.

This reminds me of the Final Fight Interview where Nishitani made it explicit, that the most essential concept was - "How far can you get in just 1 coin?" And was surprised when he saw American players pumping tokens for continues.

The way NES games handle continues is quite interesting, you have fixed checkpoints between levels, but once you turn off the game you have to start from the beginning again. This means every time you pick up the game, you will spend most of your time in areas where you struggle, getting better in the process. The difference between getting a 1CC and just beating the game boils down to not making silly mistakes. The designer can also remove checkpoints entirely in the final levels of the game, essentially requiring mastery from the players.

I believe the core issue here is, designers not being upfront with the players. R-Type removing your power up when respawning, made it clear to the player that it was not the intended way to play the game. Even players who were happy to pump multiple quarters didn't use on-the-spot continues. Later, the arcade started to glorify using on-the-spot continues, heavy particle effects, upgraded weapons, etc. How was a new player supposed to figure out whether the continues were intended or not?

Also, DMC 5's microtransactions are the same thing as on-the-spot continues. Because players have already played the previous games, they understand that the game is designed to be beaten without buying the red orbs, plus they cost real money. Now imagine, if the process of buying red orbs were streamlined to the level of inserting another quarter and you respawned with maxed-out stats, damaging every enemy on the screen. Most new players will only treat it as a shallow button masher.

Exactly, in DMC5's case there's a lot of positive cultural momentum going in its favor (even tho some people still call these games button mashers cuz they never play DMD) while with arcade games they not only lost the positive momentum due to their decline & the rise of consoles (along with some really nasty attitudes from the critics) but also built a lot of negative momentum. That negative cultural momentum is exactly what a lot of arcade fans & devs have to grapple with now, we inherited it

Yea, I've seen a bunch of people get into ZR specifically cause of how it handles checkpoints/continues. And ZR's the argument I used to convince NGdev that checkpoints don't suck as well, after R-Type/Gradius style implementations gave them a bad name LOL