InsomniaInk

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Inky | Hapless schmuck, former insomniac, comic nerd, inking enthusiast, writer, enjoyer of nachos. 18+ only



quettatonia
@quettatonia

always scary when i encounter a straight boy who uses hentai terms for real people on here, i feel like i get blindsided by the hentai F word referring to a woman with a penis at least once a week just browsing my normal non-ero stuff tags. i block immediately because i don't want to hear anything from someone who views the world in that way, but still annoying


lynnedrum
@lynnedrum

yall need to hold your porn artists to higher standards before i come over there and smack the danbooru tags out of their mouth. the fact that i just saw "#trap" unprompted on something on this website not two days ago is really somethin


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in reply to @quettatonia's post:

its really epic and cool when people use danbooru tags for us because they have never met a trans person in their life or just have no respect for us at all. i saw "#trap" on a really hot drawing On Here just the other day and it was just like. man. awesome. sick. nothing has changed

in reply to @lynnedrum's post:

"smack the danbooru tags out of their mouth" is so real. a lot of the worst online gender stuff stems from how adjacent they are to 4chan culture and the boorus are just culturally 4chan adjacent still. some of the most obnoxious groups on twitter derive their extremely high level of bullshit from being a mix of people who are still on 4chan or are 4chan adjacent, its Aura is heinous

regarding the comment in tags: i understand it can be hard to see that term if you spent a bunch of time on parts of 4chan after the word gained momentum there, but its still an important self-identifying term for a LOT of different queer(nb, 'cis'/genderqueer gnc, transmasc gnc) people. most of whom never spent time on 4chan and grew their(and others') conception of the word separate from it. doesnt mean you have to excise your pain about it though ofc

or if you meant just like "nonqueer people randomly using it as a porn tag etc" then yeah i dont trust them with that shit either. but in that case i dont trust them with it in transmasc cases either given some "for fuck's sake" transmasc fetishization ive seen

forgive my pushback on this if you can but: i understand and of course make space for nb folks who don't identify as women but still embrace femininity. these are my comrades and I'm more close to this myself than I am not a lot of the time. but while i am empathetic to this identity, i just really need it to not be the same noncommital-at-best term insufferable nerds have been using for decades to identify bodies that look like mine as Men Actually. its not the identity its just the label: i don't like it, i will never like it or be able to fully stomach its use, and im willing to accept being on the wrong side of history about that when the time comes.

its impossible for me to decouple from nonqueer people using it as a porn tag because it is synonymous and rooted with all of these other forementioned fetishistic terms/slurs. while I don't necessarily hold it against any young people who id with it not present for its origins, i just completely lack the ability to metabolize this as something worth reclaiming in this moment in time when being a skin-in-the-game transgender woman seemingly attracts more violence and retribution than any other time in recent memory. i appreciate your understanding of my pain, i mean as little harm as possible, and i understand it's more complicated than just my own pain and experience. but i'm just sick of seeing bodies like mine labeled in this way, all of the time, by both people who should be my allies and those who would prefer me dead.

I appreciate the empathy and relative calmness on this. I want to push back on a couple things and also provide some personal perspective.

Regarding "i just really need it to not be the same noncommital-at-best term insufferable nerds have been using for decades to identify bodies that look like mine" and "impossible for me to decouple from nonqueer people using it as a porn tag because it is synonymous and rooted with all of these other forementioned fetishistic terms/slurs":

A central aspect is that the misuse of lgbtq terms is inevitable, and not only that but the demeaning fetishization of transfems is a cultural phenomena that will grab whatever it can. Any other term that becomes popular for "feminine men" will end up misused the same way because that's how transphobia and the fetishization of femininity work. I don't see how that's avoidable. Its no different than "gay" or "man" being misused at trans women, its not about the words themselves but about the fundamental existence of transphobia and fetishization. To point: The growth of femboy as a porn term directly coincides with its used as an identifying term, it is something that is grabbed as it gains notice via the gravity of fetishizing transphobia, not something that fetishizing transphobia manifests as a new weapon, but as a response to how their brains conflate different queers in a transphobic way and thus take any term that fits that mold.

Also "decades" is a really big stretch. It really seems to me that the "decades" thing is based on a misinformed false history of the term. Frankly, its borderline impossible to find any instances of the term being used before 2011. It wasnt until around 2017 or so that the term became a significant force in porn, more common in some areas(ie furry sites) but still not widely known before the term exploded in 2020. Back in like 2011 shitheads were(as far as i can research) completely unaware of the term and they still were full-hose on tr*p anyway(which has direct bad meaning inside the word, unlike femboy). At that point(2011) it had rare use in furry porn, thats all i can find, hardly a broad societal fetishization.

There's a tiny amount of evidence that it was a used as a catchall antigay/antifem insult in the 90s, otherwise its hard to argue theres evidence of it frankly even existing prior to 2010, with google trends showing literally 0 results repeatedly- a far cry compared to terms like sh*male and so on. My first encounter with it was eagle summers talking about identifying with it in in bigender terms in 2013 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R7WPx-y__pY , and then very rare encounters until it started becoming really noticed later on.

Whenever the discussion of the term comes up, I often see 30+ year old trans women even say that they've literally never seen the term used as a slur, which is not something you can say about any other slur- if you avoid 4chan prior to the term becoming generally known in 2020, then seems to be borderline impossible to have run into the term as a slur prior to it becoming a widely known identifying term in 2020. The internet is full of highly specific places, producing very different perspectives on the same words. I dont want to live in a culture that lets 4chan control its perspective on everything.

I might have missed things on researching this over the years, of course. Maybe you experienced it foully a lot early on outside of 4chan too- maybe a furry site i overlooked?

"Queer" has been used to insult lgbtq people something like literally 100,000 times more than femboy. Obviously people who were in spaces when it was being used badly dont have to shed their pain, but the incredibly positive infusion into "queer" says a lot about the nature of words revolving around mass experiences.

So regarding "while I don't necessarily hold it against any young people who id with it not present for its origins", its not really about age but about where someone was on the internet. My experience in these debates is predominantly seeing 16-18 year olds who had recently been on 4chan(or saw very specific tiktok vids) yelling at 30+ year old knowledgable trans women for using the term to " know their history".

Again, I frankly dont see how this phenomena wouldn't happen to literally any other identifying term. If it becomes popular, then its going to be used haphazardly the exact same way, period. There are also lingual limits to constructing alternative terms that are intuitive and so on. Even in one of the very biggest(~1000 users online at any given time) femboy discord servers, which even has a primarily transfem modding staffing and is a wonderful place, almost nobody uses alternative terms for the word even though one would think thats the most ideal space for such a thing to emerge. There are lingual reasons for that.

Also, I dont know what you mean by "noncommital-at-best term". I'm also not sure what you meant by "skin-in-the-game"- do you mean not being closeted?

Second: Personal perspective.

To be perfectly clear(not that you implied otherwise), I am not a baby queer. I dont just go "oh all these people are saying this ok ill do this." Due to being genderfluid I have rolled gender thoughts around in my head over and over and over probably more than is healthy across a decade.

Its difficult to express how relieving the term has been. I frankly did not feel well spending 7 years in queer spaces, primarily transfem heavy spaces, having an extremely hard time finding other people like me(either femboy or genderfluid) and getting understood, and feeling invisible and strange in the middle of other queers. Sure, when i have genderfluid shifts that give me experiences and perspectives that trans women have, i could relate more, but most of the time it just wasnt that. The closest alternatives to being invisible were the vaguest umbrella terms that dont communicate you, or a bunch of nonqueers who have words for you(tr*p) that just fetishize you and hurtfully lump you in with others in the process. I think this would've been easier if understanding of nonbinary people accelerated faster, but regardless.

And then finally when the term started becoming popular in 2019 onward and I found sizable spaces for it(which were good spaces, not 4channy ones), I not only got to be among a bunch of people who understand, but also other queers finally have a relatively common capacity to understand and see me. To finally feel seen among other queers. To finally work on that feeling of "something must be fucking wrong with me because i feel like the odd one out among other queers".

I look into the biggest femboy communities and I see fundamental similarities to butch communities. I see butch parallels repeated. Hrt butches, nonbinary butches, he/him(but woman-identifying, using pronouns as a tool of expression rather than identification) butches, butches headcannoning certain kinds of straight cis male characters as butch women, etc. Its like a possibility space that existed for a type of gnc woman-aligned people for over half a literal century now exists for a type of gnc man-aligned people, something that was needed. Something that not only helps people who stay in that area, but people who benefit from seeing a broader possibility space so they can comfortably try being butch or a femboy to better understand themselves before they figure things out and move elsewhere. Having the possibility space populated allows for more gateways. The term has, frankly, helped a lot of people and I have seen this over and over and over, even as it gets used sloppily by others as a sexualized term.

The word not being known before did not result in less fetishization, it just meant different terms were used for fetishization and fewer queers felt understanding and comfort.

Because of all these feelings and bonds and reliefs, I refuse to going back to not having a term. Just like how even though people get confused about "genderfluid" over and over i will take what i can get because its better than not having a decent alternative at all. Nobody has made a decent alternative for femboy, there's always some fundamental problem with any halfassed alternative term, and like I said any term that gains momentum will get misused by shitheads the same way.

I am sick of the same things you are and like your other comment points out, we agree about a lot(and share certain experiences, although I got off 4chan earlier it seems). And I definitely wish femboy had less of an aura of sexualization around it from both queers and chasertypes. I just dont see abandoning "femboy" as an action that has more gain than loss and I cant see the term different than the reclamation of "queer".

As queer possibility space opens, as visibility spreads, reaction happens as the hateful and the ignorant process that. I think trying to dodge that makes a similar mistake to respectability politics- its not about the method but the visibility itself, reactionaries and fetishizers etc will respond the same way every time.

well, that is an awful lot of text to wake up to and i can't respond to all of it. i disagree with a lot here but im not going to nor don't really want to change your mind, and my mind on this wont be changed at this juncture either. a couple of things, however:

  1. when i say "decades" I didn't mean like, several decades, only around two. i first became aware of the term when i was in high school (2004-2007), so in typing this up on my phone at 3 am i rounded "15+ years" to "decades". my bad on that but its pretty close to being true. it was a word i had seen around then and if we're lining up "evidence" or whatever then it was at least used as early as 2006 in the video game "Bully" (where some guy announces another kid as 'Femboy: The Girliest Boy In School'). i had seen it used as a pornography category long before i had seen anyone identifying with it, and that is probably just a difference in the circles we've run in.

  2. in addition to that, this was the only time in my life i was on 4chan. a weird thing to get caught on admittedly, but i harbor so much hate for that place so i really don't want to be misrepresented on how long i used the website. my exposure to that word extends past just being online. while i was not on 4chan very long, in the music scenes and irl communities i became a part of shortly after, many still were, and they take their language with them. it feels like you want to confine this word's context as something negative or fetishistic to just something people on sites like those know about but even not having touched those sites in a very long time, I'm exposed to that word on a regular basis. i think this is just a difference in perspective between us, on where i see it and what we both consider negative/fetishistic use.

  3. i cant begin to unpack equating "femboy" to "butch", or "queer" or other reclaimed slurs for queer people. I've already explained my feelings on why i don't find it worth reclaiming as a word, which has little to do with the identity. ive already accepted my fate as potentially being on the wrong side of history on this if the label finds more widespread use and acceptance. if and when that time comes ill gladly own up to that and i will have no choice but to welcome it! but to me, right now, at the end of the day it is a hentai tag that i see hand in hand with shit like "futanari" or "trap" or any other number of terms that make me see an equal amount of red, and i don't have to go on 4chan or even be actively looking for porn online to confront that.

  4. and when i say "skin-in-the-game transgender woman" i am referring to people who put their bodies in public spaces and present in a nonambiguous way such that would attract blanket-term "negative attention". this wasn't meant to be a qualitative statement, just a real accounting of how the stakes are different in real, physical spaces instead of behind a computer screen. of course this isn't limited to people who id as a trans woman, but anyone a violent person would look at and classify as "a faggot". on that i agree, at the end of the day it doesn't matter what you call yourself, if someone with bad intention looks at you and assumes the same thing. this is just my own personal axe to grind as someone who's been in it for a long time as a transgender woman more butch-presenting than femme on the spectrum and is often read as an effeminate gay man.

admittedly a lot of my response to you was a bit of word salad, because again i wrote it on my phone at 3 am. but when i say a "noncommittal at best term to refer to bodies like mine as men" i am referring to the innumerable people out there who would do anything in their power to not call a transgender woman a woman. "why can't you just be a feminine man" is a regular rebuttal to trans women that i have received frequently in my life. i just want to clarify that i am not calling you "noncommittal" or accusing you of being a "baby queer" or anything. but we fundamentally have different perspectives on this and for now, i do not have the ability to remove the term "femboy" from those wanting me or girls like me to hedge on their identity and their life to suit their own comfort in not wanting to call us what we are. there's too much hurt there for me.

I don't want to continue this argument with you, no less not in this comment section on someone else's post. again, i have no real desire to change your mind. i think in the grand scheme of things we are allied, or at least i hope we would be. i'm sorry we can't see eye to eye on this semantic discussion but again, im not here to take your queerness away from you.

aha yeah, i woke up to your response earlier today too. sorry for being verbose and that we ultimately dont see eye to eye on this. i appreciate the clarifications and I really appreciate you being open and non-acidic about this. a few non-arguing comments/clarifications that arent important:

"i first became aware of the term when i was in high school (2004-2007), "

that's pretty fascinating, i havent heard many claims of people hearing it in school that early but i have heard a little. i wonder if its a regional thing. i grew up in north texas, basically same high school years. i forgot about it being in bully, fair point! my main point was just a scale of "how much is a word actually used" because of how that affects a word's perception and solidification of such, in juxtaposition to terms that have/had a constant high volume.

clarification re 2);
"it feels like you want to confine this word's context as something negative or fetishistic to just something people on sites like those know about but even not having touched those sites in a very long time, I'm exposed to that word on a regular basis. "

more of what i meant was that its significant(by which i mean in terms of scale of usage) usage as a negative term prior to 2019/2020's explosion was predominantly a 4chan thing. not that nobody used it poorly prior but as a "likelihood to see this" sort of thing, thus the large numbers of trans women who havent(or hadnt prior to a point) seen it used as a slur. now that its generally known there's certainly more instances of being used poorly, especially in porn spaces.

clarification re 2)
"but even not having touched those sites in a very long time, I'm exposed to that word on a regular basis. i think this is just a difference in perspective between us, on where i see it and what we both consider negative/fetishistic use."

yeah, i mean i see it regularly on discord/reddit/youtube/twitter, but only rarely as misgendering, but ofc spaces and content sought out affects that. if i were in certain kinds of discords or if i looked at certain types of porn more id probably see worse, for example.

re 3)
yeah i dont know what to say about this. i'm around a lot of different queers who have healthy gender attitudes and take value in the term. idk. its an impasse in predominant exposure and/or perception or something. if you want some more personal insight into how some of those people relate to gender maybe https://cohost.org/Mightfo/post/1431774-cis-yet-not-cis-the would illuminate perhaps. i put a lot of effort into that based on my own experiences and what i saw amongst others, but if you dont care that's cool too.

re 4)
oh, yeah, i get that, i present visibly queer too constantly irl too. its definitely especially hard for butch-ish etc trans women and it fucking sucks :<

re noncomittal:
ahh, that makes sense. yeah, the limboing around calling trans women women is absolutely awful and i'm really sorry that so many people are still shitty about that and other trans things.

again, thanks for at least listening, and we are allied for sure, and i appreciate you being kind about this.

<3 i appreciate you, i do care bc despite my pain around this I don't want to invalidate other queer experiences or make enemies of anyone who ultimately shares a similarly flavored struggle as i do. thank you for the discussion, no need to apologize for having a lot to say about it. i feel pretty strongly on this but i also understand people find something important to them in having a term for their identity so it isn't like i want to take that away more than i really wish it could be any other word that isn't loaded with so much negative and painful association in my heart. i'll nope out here bc its obvi a really sensitive and complicated subject for us both (and i have so much i gotta do this week to be allocating my remaining stress on this!!!) but thank you for keeping it chill.

(also im sorry i really focused in on that aspect of your comment, we clearly agree about a lot here and i appreciate the generally chill challenge to my old-ass-woman mindset even if im otherwise really passionate about this subject)