pnictogen-wing
@pnictogen-wing

I'm no expert in the biochemistry of the brain, but surely thoughts and memories depend as much upon the fluid medium of the brain as well as the more permanent structures of its neurons—the complex cycles and oscillations in dissolved ions, neurochemicals, &c. that cease to exist when the brain is killed and preserved with glutaraldehyde or whatever. and yes, they're proposing exactly that: https://nectome.com/the-case-for-glutaraldehyde-structural-encoding-and-preservation-of-long-term-memories/ glutaraldehyde, H(C=O)(CH₂)₃(C=O)H, is a somewhat less toxic alternative to formaldehyde in the preservation of soft tissue by chemical cross-linking.

so you preserve the physical structures of the brain—so what? what does that get you, when you've lost the complex chemical medium in which a living brain functions? and you can't get that back because the glutaraldehyde preservation has reacted with and thus destroyed much of the fine chemical structures that were present in the living brain. it's cross-linked all the proteins, denatured them. the idea of somehow reconstructing thoughts and memories from these dead and permanently altered tissues seems a bit like thinking that you can reconstruct Windows 10 by meticulous microscopic examination of an Intel microprocessor that happened to be running Windows 10 before it was removed for examination. that's not an analogy I want to push too far because a brain and its neurochemicals aren't the same as a computer's hardware and software, but still—organic life and organic thought are so dependent upon transient phenomena, chemical oscillations that are destroyed upon death, that I don't get why this wild notion is supposed to be plausible.

anyway, if Sam Altman wants to convince me that he ought to be able to preserve his brain, first he should convince me that there's anything worthwhile in it.

~Chara


ireneista
@ireneista

context below the cut, for people who feel that their life is enhanced by context


https://openworm.org/ is an academic research project aimed at advancing our understanding of neuroscience by simulating a flatworm

this particular type of flatworm has something like 120 brain cells. something in that close neighborhood, we don't remember exactly, but every worm has the same number of brain cells and the same layout of them and the exact function of every single one has been documented extensively

there is a thing you can teach a flatworm to do: you can catch it in a loop of wire and wait for it to escape. there is a particular trick to escaping. you can tell whether a flatworm has learned the trick by how long it takes to get out. you can also look at its brain, because learning the trick changes the way the neurons connect in a certain precise, documented way

with all of this knowledge, some might think it should be easy to identify how memories are stored in the flatworm's brain, and even simulate it

that turns out not to be the case

our understanding is that neuroscientists don't seriously believe that the mere topology of neurons is the entirety of memory storage, there's more going on, we just have only the barest guesses at what

and that is why we don't worry about brain uploads with current technology


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in reply to @adorablesergal's post:

I think the funniest detail here by far is that sam altman has paid five figures to put himself on a waitlist to be medically destroyed, and the strongest thing he can say in affirmation of his decision is 'I assume.'

there's no world in which he actually believes in this enough to die for it, I'm sure, but it's a great soundbite.

in reply to @pnictogen-wing's post:

They are 100% fucking this up by assuming processing solely takes place in the neurons. The "computational theory of mind" poisoned the brains of techbros everywhere who assumed because they can program in python or C, they know how human brains work.

They don't. They never did. They never will, and this rigid insistence on superficial structure being the encoded information is going to result in a lot of disappointment, which is both funny and sad, because this is being sold as a last ditch for terminal patients who are eligible for euthanasia.

this quote from Ken Hayworth, who is a neuroscientist apparently, “If the brain is dead, it’s like your computer is off, but that doesn’t mean the information isn’t there,” when i turn off my computer the information absolutely isn't there, famously, when you turn off a computer all the stuff in its memory goes away forever and the only way of preserving it is to not turn it off.

Also if you do want to push the anology too far, which you should because if computer analogies are gonna work on anyone they should work on people trying to upload themselves to one, i think what you're looking for is a core dump. Which would only stand a chance of making sense to the person who designed the program that was running at the time.

EDIT: nvm, a core dump is further than they even hope to get, they are just hoping that looking at a microprocessor will tell you what it was doing last time it was powered.

and Ken Hayworth does indeed seem to come with impressive credentials and academic experience, but that doesn't necessarily mean he's totally on board with this idea—he might be deliberately leaning into a questionable notion simply because it'll keep corporate sponsors interested in funding him. undoubtedly he'll make some sort of technical advances even if it's in the service of an extremely bad idea. yay capitalist science!

in reply to @ireneista's post: