KittyCatHerder

Herdlin' out of Control

I'm kitbitty (ΘΔ) and I like going by the name Kitty or Violet. I'm also in my early 30s

I'm a twitch streamer who is trying to get back on schedule. I try to co-host streams with my friends on Wednesdays and Saturdays at 4pm EST

I'm pretty can be pretty 🔞 horny on main 🔞 but I have a page the vast majority of that linked down below.

but yeah Minors, please don't interact.


Twitter 🐤
x.com/kchStreaming

covok
@covok

I am am an amateur ttrpg developer. I love the idea of open licenses allowing people to make games based on other games easier. Yes, you cannot copyright mechanics but you can copyright expressions. If an engine is not subject to a license, you can make a game based on it but you'd have to make the entire game from scratch, which is a barrier to entry, and it comes with legal issues.

At the moment, I decided to go out and remake a game I love that has been out of print for 12 years. It's engine was turned into a generic game but due to a lot of corporate fuckery the engine is not available under any license. It was going to be put under one -- twice -- but fuckery stopped it. I got sick of it and I'm making a quick, no art remake reworded from scratch with new names for the mechanics and it's getting released under CC-BY-4.0 DEED Attribution 4.0 International.

When I asked around about it, I was surprised to see so many people on game design groups going "who cares?" and "game mechanics can't be copyrighted anyway so why bother" or even "I just assume all licenses are out there to hurt me so a license makes me worried about doing it more than you just saying it's cool." Now, no one was rude, for clarity. I intentionally reworded their words to be blunt for brevity.

I'm still going to do my project and release it as a SRD on itch and DTRPG for free with instructions to go out and make your own games with it. But, now I'm wondering: am I weird?

In my mind, if you have a license, you have the freedom to make things easier and that allows for experimentation on an engine and makes it seem "safer" to make stuff with mechanics from it since it makes it clear that the person won't take action. I don't like just "I promise not to do anything" stuff because it relies heavily on their word. Sure, Meg and Vincent Baker are trustworthy, but I don't trust everyone not to be weird about it. And, without a license or contract, such verbal agreements can be rescinded at any time for any reason at your expense because you have nothing that protects you enforceable from them doing so.

But, am I weird for caring so much? I still think doing this is a service for others who like this game, want to play it in the modern day after it being out of print for 12 years, and opens the floor to new versions. But, what does everyone else think?


binary
@binary

I don't think it's weird at all to license your stuff. In theory you can make a game based on any ruleset, as long as you keep your expressions distinct! In practice, that's not how this works socially, and people can get super weird about it - and this doesn't even start to get into weird rights hangups if you're hacking an older or more "corporate"-origin game, like the situation you're describing. Putting a license on something is to me a signal that, without having to expressly ask, you have a way to do it (and what parameters are being asked, if any). I figure it's also more future-proof - if you have to ask someone for permission, well, nobody lives forever and I'd rather have something survive me without causing anyone heartburn over it, and this is a way to guarantee what the situation is in perpetuity.

Some of the CC's can be a little hard to parse, so I get that "all these licenses are trying to hurt me" argument to some degree (like someone not understanding CC BY SA might feel some kind of way if they make something and realized they have to relicense it in the same way). (Tangential thought: I blame the OGL for half of this line of thinking.) CC BY is dirt simple though, all you have to do is put an attribution statement in there (and you can give them a pre-written one to make it easy!) I also like less than formal licenses for things that are more "I'd prefer you not copy this text directly, but you can definitely make something based off of this" in nature.


queerinmech
@queerinmech

licensing is very important, think of it like voting

licenses are stigmatized by corporations so that they are the only ones who have legal safety and control

in the software world Microsoft did this intentionally and blatantly for decades and to a large extent their campaign was successful in poisoning the well

vague, non-existent, and permissive licensing gives them plausible deniability and protection from you, while giving them free reign to exploit and attack

on the other hand, an explicitly free license does a lot to prove you have no profit motive and this reduces your potential liability if they do come after you - another reason they don't want you using those licenses


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in reply to @covok's post:

from what I understand, the SRD licenses exist so that you can copy and paste the text from one document straight into another with no alterations. However, if you can explain the same rule in your own words, you don't need to include refer to the licence agreement.

Oh, I understand that. I just am wondering if more people care about such things. I feel it's a big deal to get that stuff under some kind of open license since it makes things easier for indies. But I get the vibe others do not care as much.

Judging by the design-explosions fueled (in no small part) by the licenses games like mörk borg provided, I think you're totally justified in wanting to find a way to lower any existing barriers into designing stuff.

(I have conflicted feelings on the SRD-as-brand trend that goes with this in the larger hobby space, but that's a separate can of worms.)

Yeah, with 5e it ends up getting weird because it's more done for control because they can make a walled garden in DMsGuild. But I feel that is exception due to unequal power and not my goal here.

Honestly, I think part of the TTRPG space's hostility to thinking about licences is because the well was poisoned by licensing agreements like Wizards' OGL before things like software licences and, later, Creative Commons brought ideas about licensing for its own sake near the mainstream.

The contemporary proliferation of indie SRD licensing agreements (deliberately!) replicate the same "you can use this text verbatim as the basis for your game only if you prominently use your finished thing as a billboard for ours" terms as the OGL, and honestly? if that's what people in the space think of when someone says "licence", I understand the scepticism; that's corporate flag-planting, not an intent to build a commons.

I can see that, now that you reminded me. I felt I was clear in my OP though my goal was to help people use the games. The only reason I am using attribution is so people who see derivations know the original is Creative Commons so people know they can easily make stuff. I was even going to make it sharealike to keep everything under CC but changed my mind because it might scare people off.

I'm 100% with you on the intent and reasoning! Sadly, as we saw with the attempted "well what if we had our own OGL to lock you into uwu" goldrush, even most TTRPG indies don't seem to want actually open licences — they want corporate licensing programmes, and their only problem with them is when other people are running the exploitation.

Fingers crossed that new thinking makes inroads, but goodness knows it doesn't seem to have yet.

Yeah, I had even considered using ORC for this project but I heard it wasn't great for people down the line. I remember when the internet was young and everyone was trying to make things open source as a radical stand against corpo control. That didn't pan out as expected in some cases. A lot of people turned out to just be mad it wasn't them fucking others over. I don't want to name names but I remember some post OGL games hyping their commitment to freedom and putting out bunk licenses. It just gobsmacks me. We are hobbyists. There really isn't any money in this industry anyway. It's all about passion. We should be working together and sharing ideas to make better games, not doing all this petty shit.

I don't think you're weird at all for this. Like I haven't designed any games yet but I have a project I haven't really got much work done on yet that is inspired by the fate rpg system and final bid by liberigothica and a big reason for that is that well I like both systems but also because of their licenses make it easy to work off of their mechanics as a springboard for my own ideas.

There's been a lot of (quiet but effective) propaganda that licenses restrict what you can do with something, and for no good reason, nobody but occasionally me pointing out that public licenses are literally the list of things that the creator lets you do, if you uphold the requirements. Those "restrictions" are essentially the compensation for that permission, which it sounds like you already grasp, but I wanted to complete the thought.

You're definitely not the only one thinking about it, in other words. Most people are just on the other side. I think that we only fix that by putting out and talking about more public-licensed (I use the term "Free Culture" for the subset that doesn't restrict by usage or field of work, but realize that not everybody does) works.

Looking forward to see what you come up with.

I'm confused. Who and why are they spreading that propaganda. Like, who benefits from that? I can't even see how corpos benefit. So, why would someone spread those lies? Like, by default, copyright sets absolute restrictions on things. Licenses of any kind open the gate. Shitty licenses exist, but claiming all of them are bad and restrict your rights is a galaxy brained take.

I agree that it's awful. I imagine that it comes down from the big publishers, but it definitely flows through smaller companies who haven't read the licenses and just assume that they're risky. And then you probably have people who just think that people sharing and cooperating is inherently bad.

For what it's worth, I publish what I can under CC BY-SA or the AGPL, and talk about those decisions. I can't do much to push back against bad ideas, but I can do that much...