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highimpactsex
@highimpactsex

I've been playing Mass Effect 2 on the side, and unlike my negative experience with the previous game, I've come to appreciate the game more as a kind of Final Fantasy 7 for XBOX 360 players.

I'm not saying it's as good as FF7, but what I mean is that it was able to create experiences that felt bigger than they actually were. You don't revisit places with memorable set pieces that often, and the galaxy actually felt big. This was my experience with FF7 where I saw bit by bit how big the world was after leaving important locations.

The key word is "felt". It's not about whether this is real (of course the game is bigger than ME1), but rather my feeling that Mass Effect 2 feels big and worth exploring.

And it made me think about Large Games, how daunting and unplayable they are to me, and yet I have played long games like La Mulana 1 without a problem.


I believe there are at least two kinds of Large Games that have been conflated in recent years.

1) The Physically Large Game

This is the typical AAA game caricature. The file size is large. The maps are big. The assets are big. Everything is big and takes up most of your PC's hard drive. You know to some extent how big the game is because of the file size and what the game press has said. You open up the map screen and it tells you how many objectives there are. I see that mountain and I can climb it.

This is Large and Big as people tend to know. People are going to have very different feelings about this -- some might see it as ambition, some might see it as bloat -- but I personally see it as dread.

I look at the objective list and cower. There's so much I have to do because the game tells me it's big this and big that. When people started describing Tears of the Kingdom as having too much to do, I lost interest. I can only think of it as a game full of chores, and I know that is an unfair characterization. It's just the way my brain worked.

At first I thought it was because I was not interested in Large Games. Maybe what I wanted was small and compact games. But that didn't make sense to me because I played so many long JRPGs.

2) "Large", or Black Box Large

It took me a while to realize it, but I like it when Large Games don't reveal how large they are. I put this "Large" in quotes to indicate that it's quite imaginary or obscure. A better way to think about it is to describe how a black box works.

God bless Wikipedia because it can describe things better than I ever will:

In science, computing, and engineering, a black box is a system which can be viewed in terms of its inputs and outputs (or transfer characteristics), without any knowledge of its internal workings. Its implementation is "opaque" (black). The term can be used to refer to many inner workings, such as those of a transistor, an engine, an algorithm, the human brain, or an institution or government.

The TL;DR would be "we don't know what's in here, but it's doing something" and I want to use that to describe the size of games.

A classic example of what I consider a "Black Box Large" would be something like the Etrian Odyssey games. That's a dungeon crawling RPG where you know you're delving into something, but you don't know how deep it goes. You have to map it out for yourself, and then realize through your own efforts how labyrinthine the dungeons really are.

This hits different from knowing that a game has ten floors with three thousand rooms. You discover the size of the rooms for yourself. It feels more accessible to me, and there's a sense of mystery about figuring out how big the game is.

But there are other ways to make something feel big without giving everything away. Something I found interesting while listening to an interview with 1000xRESIST's creative director was his description of Final Fantasy 7 as a game where you leave places. For him, there's something sentimental about leaving places you've been forever and then exploring a wide new world. It transforms the sense of loss of not being able to access places into something great and wonderful. Like it's saying, "You may have to leave your hometown, but there's a bigger world out there."

If you play 1000xRESIST, you'll find that each chapter is full of unique setpieces that don't appear in other chapters. The same goes for Final Fantasy 7, Mass Effect 2, and other games where you lose access to places you're familiar with. You are forced to go to different places, a new world. I think this negative sense of loss and the strange need to "immigrate", for lack of a better word, make the world feel bigger and harsher than it actually is.

Because if you think about it, there is no way a game would just throw you into a softlock. It's clearly meant to advance the story and make you see things. But I think for a player like me, it makes the journey after the status quo is dead feel more hectic and alive.

It just makes me wonder, "Is there a world even bigger than my fictional game home?"

Why the Distinction?

Let's imagine two versions of the same game that follow these outlined philosophies. The first game is a title that advertises its size. The second game hides it and takes players on precarious adventures in unfamiliar terrain. These two versions are the same game, and yet I think their different priorities have led to unique results.

This is all a matter of preference, but what I find exciting about the black box variety of big games is that I get to discover how big they really are. La-Mulana 1 felt magical to me because I didn't know when the game would end. I kept unlocking newer items and harder areas, and I didn't know how to understand what I was looking at. Compared to games where I knew how much text and gameplay there was going to be, I found this enthralling and mysterious.

It felt like I was on an adventure figuring out how deep something went. The anxiety and awe I felt created a larger game than it really was. It's all imaginary when you step back and think about it, but I would argue that imagination is a productive space that makes games feel like fun and not a chore.

This is why I really love old text adventures. I couldn't tell how long a game was because it was all text and the puzzles could range from trivial to absurdly difficult. Getting stuck on a puzzle prolongs the game and stimulates my imagination.

But when I encounter a standard Metroidvania, I get what is advertised on the Steam Store page. It did actually take me 20 hours to complete, and I did actually encounter all 500 unique rooms with 20 special weapons. Nothing surprising, nothing different.

And I think that's tragic to see genres that are all about exploration be something like a routine. I know what I'd be getting into and I don't like that.

I think that's why people loved Final Fantasy 7 and Mass Effect 2 back in the day, because you didn't know what was going to happen. Now it feels trite to play another video game.

We Can Make Games Like This

I don't think this is a post written by a boomer who thinks games used to be good and magical. Instead, I know of several recent titles that bucked the trend. If you need an AAA example, think Elden Ring, where you find new areas because the map you had was incomplete. There are also many indie and doujin examples: Sylvie RPG is a game full of secrets, and NonStories is a game that feels impossible to describe other than "big".

Nor do I want game developers to read this and go "aha, I'm just gonna obfuscate my mechanics." You could be the next Kawazu to make the next SaGa games, but I don't think every game needs that. I'm playing Thistlemine, and it's a game that tells you everything you need to know, but you still have to fight some challenging puzzle bosses.

What I want is a sense of mystery back. A sense of not knowing everything. You can do that by adding new mechanics, by creating friction, by adding a challenge, or just by adding some dank plot twists. I don't want to be able to predict what I'm going to do in the next hour. That sucks, and it makes me feel like I should be doing my real chores.

I think Physically Large Games and the companies that make them today are forgetting that games can be towering in size, but it doesn't matter if the "size" isn't felt by the player. Just because a game takes up so much of my free space doesn't mean it feels like a place I want to explore.

All in all, I think physically small games can feel big. My partner enjoyed Void Stranger, a 300MB game. After encountering a certain mechanic, they joked that they now treat the game as an SCP. They're playing with it and learning how the game works. It started to dawn on them that the game was much bigger than they thought, and it's exciting.

I think we should want more games like this.


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in reply to @highimpactsex's post:

yesssssssss i really agree!!

i think about this a lot with games and i think it's a quiet advantage they have over a lot of other types of media - video games have a lot more leeway to be bigger than they let on

your point about mystery is key imo! when a game is big and it tells you, it can be intimidating or even feel repetitive before you've seen any of it. but playing a game that coyly expands bit by bit manages to feel way bigger even if it's still relatively small, because it doesn't show its hand. when you start unwinding the knots of void stranger and seeing one new thing, then solving another secret, then meeting another character... you start to believe that any number of beautiful and cool surprises could be hiding around! it could be any size! and even though it's just an illusion of bigness - in reality it's way smaller than, like, tears of the kingdom - the illusion is all you need. by the time you realize it's coming to an end, you're satisfied with your time there, and the illusion has done its job. that awe of a world full to bursting is more important than the reality

it's a really cool feeling!!

i think the psychological angles for this is also complicated and can vary a lot from player to player.

Like for me, often games where I feel like I can see/reach everything overwhelm me or drag me down. I get little joy out of taking those stupid pointless side paths in pokemon that have tiny rewards and dont add much to the world, but I tend to do it because "well, there may be something nice, and its easy to check"- its so easily in reach that I end up padding the game when I should've skipped all that.

But in something like Fallout 3 I just go "There's no way I'm going to do everything or be optimal. So I wont even try." It lets me just be impulsive and freeform and give up on completionism. I just do what I want in a natural way.

Of course, some people I know have a very inverted reaction to the same situations.

Player expectation/approach can also be a whack component that gets in the way of mysteries etc letting games feel good... often people get very fixated on "i gotta do this the Optimal way" and it accelerates dissolving secrets. I saw a post about a guild wars 2 update complaining "man i followed all these very specific speedyrun-y guides and completed the new areas in just 3 hours. Why didnt I have more fun, why didnt it last longer" without any particular need to actually do it as fast as possible… and it was just like, well, yeah, you played it in a way at odds with your own desires.

Part of why I bring that up is I think that type of expectation+appraoch also feeds into types of "its X big" presentation you talk about- well they want "even big that it takes a long time with a guide, so we have to Prove it to Entice them", which is an approach that can also go beyond presentation into game design aspects

I think unexpectedness is often such a major part of really enjoying games... i talk about that some in https://cohost.org/Mightfo/post/5853325-like-god-one-of-my and https://cohost.org/Mightfo/post/768449-full-vision-video-g (you talking about "chores" reminded me of that latter one especially)

You pointing out “not knowing how big this game is” reminds me of how I really loved how unformulaic some older rpgs like Saga Frontier and Legend of Mana were, and i think that tied into both your point and the general Weird aesthetic n tones those game had. I really treasure their sense of mystique and want something close again..

A little worried a lot of this comment is too off topic, sorry if so!

I think unfortunately I'm one of the inverted reaction people; when a game shows me a checklist of everything my brain usually really enjoys that cuz it means I'm making progress and doing things Right, which I guess is good for me. But when there's something like Bethesda RPGs it's like, I feel like there's too much unknown and I'll probably make a shitty build and it kinda overwhelms me. I think there's definitely games that fit into a balance for me but they can be a bit rarer than I'd like I guess

Yeah fwiw on my end I was mostly talking about "What do I do next? Where do I go? Do I focus on getting anything?" Even when I've become freeform on that, I sometimes do run into some things like "ack, what if i make a shitty build" that makes me feel less free and less impulsive. I think this mainly comes up in otherwise impulsive contexts if I'm concerned about missing a specific kind of thing, like idk getting to recruit a character I really want to see or something.

#1 way to avoid this, imo? No checklists! Achievements, unlockables, map locations, moves... if any of them let you see how many are left, it instantly feels like a chore to me. Mario 64 never tells you how many stars there are total – just that you need 30 to get to the next thing.

This put to words a feeling I've had for a while but couldn't quite pin down. I'd quantified it as "I'm burned out on open-world games" but that didn't feel right, exactly? I'd wander around in game worlds for hours when I was a kid. I've got good memories of getting lost in the forest in Elder Scrolls Oblivion and exploring all the corners of Pokemon worlds to name the first that come to mind. But as an adult, booting up a game and being told "look at all the stuff you can do!" makes me not want to do any of that stuff. What you said about people describing all the things you can do in Tears of the Kingdom and feeling dread is the same feeling I had. I can't have fun because I feel like I'm missing Something, and maybe that Something is on the infinite list of Things You Can Do.

To a certain extent I'm okay with map markers and quest trackers in the sense that it makes it easier to remember what I was doing the last time I opened the game, but to be told upfront "look at the hundreds of hours you'll spend!" just rubs me the wrong way. In contrast, something like Stardew Valley I can (and have) spent hundreds of hours in, not because the game told me that I could but because it was a game world I wanted to be in. It's a nebulous line that's gonna differ from person to person, but realizing this does help me understand my own gameplay habits and desires a bit better, if that makes sense.

the exchange of influence between japanese and american/european/canadian rpgs over the past several decades is definitely something more folks should be looking at

It's interesting because the size of a game is not important for me, what is really interesting is the density e how meaningful is the exploration. I can pick games like No Rest for the Wicked where the map isn't large but there's a LOT to find in the handcrafted world. Shadow of the Erdtree is another exemple of a "small" but very dense and meaningful (lore wise) map.

The thing about not knowing how big it is, is really fun and surprising, but I don't miss that when a game like Mario Odyssey tells me precisely how many stars I should have in order to complete it. I can see the map, it's not huge, but is very dense and full of secrets. I feel like it's even more engaging.

Again, for me it's all about the quality of my time exploring the world, Zelda TOTK has a really strange and unrewarding exploration tbh.