Linker

Linker

@Linker

Just a little fellow!

Game Developer and Pixel Artist.

Games at http://linker.itch.io, & http://patreon.com/linkerbm.

Business/Inquiries: linkerbm@gmail.com.

🔒Priv: @Link-Lonk

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Linker
@Linker
PIZZAPRANKS
@PIZZAPRANKS
PIZZAPRANKS
@PIZZAPRANKS

The Pizza Pranks Video Game Fair

Maybe back on?

Never mind, this was in fact a bad idea. Leaving up so I can't run from my bad ideas.

I am working to organize the first (annual?) Pizza Pranks Video Game Fair! It will be a month-long event showcasing a storefront of new, short games. Basically, I was deeply inspired by the ShortBox Comics Fair and wondered if it would be possible for me to do that with games.

The goal is the create an event not around game previews, but around fully released (likely shorter and more experimental) games. Basically furthering the exploration of zine and other short-form style art in games that I've been doing with Indiepocalypse. I love the feeling of going to my local indie comic show and picking up a bunch of cool new (or new to me) art! My hope is that one day completed games will be more the norm at fests/expos/events and that this fair will help encourage that!

My hope with the Fair is to also reach 25 exhibitors but that is also a lofty goal that I may not reach! Submissions will still be curated though and not all submissions will be accepted even it means coming under the 25 exhibitor goal

The main details are

  • Will run through the month of November 2023 (tentative)
  • Exhibitors keep full rights of their games
  • Games must be exclusive to the Fair during November, after that you can you do whatever you want with them
  • Games must be newly released
  • Exhibitors receive all of the sales of their game, after processing fees
  • There is no theme for the Fair
  • $20 exhibition fee after a minimum of $50 in sales. No upfront fee

I honestly don't know if this will 100% happen but I'm optimistic! I feel like I'm well overdue for something just outright failing but it weirdly hasn't happened yet. There are 2 main things that would cause this to fail

  1. I can't get enough exhibitors (possible)
  2. ShortBox doesn't like it (I tried emailing them to make sure and I may be worried about some imagined worst case, because Internet. But also it could happen because Internet and really it is very inspired by their comic fair)

Overall, I (obviously) hope this does happen. I don't know, but like anything else it does no good existing in my head so I want to try it!

PIZZAPRANKS
@PIZZAPRANKS

IMPORTANT ADDENDUM/QUESTION

I wrote this up on the assumption that a fee ($20 in this case) was an assumed part of participating in an exhibition/fair as operating costs since organizers don't take any cut of sales. But on Twitter I was told that this I'm basically asking people to pay for exposure.

Maybe I am! I making this addendum to ask that very question! And I want people to tell me! More than the actual release announcement I want this spread beyond my own reach so I can better get a wider opinion.

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in reply to @PIZZAPRANKS's post:

baiyu
@baiyu

Asking here for others to see: will there be general content restrictions for submissions? ie. No adult content due to event having attendees under the age of 18, no themes of xyz, etc.

I'm also confused about the field for "link to work": is that just for you to see someone's existing portfolio of games, or is it for the game to be submitted?

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PIZZAPRANKS
@PIZZAPRANKS

Yeah, I Basically meant portfolio and expanded on that question to make it clearer. So far as content of the games, there are no restrictions. If someone wants to make something 18+ then I suppose I can figure out making an age gate?

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jdm0079
@jdm0079

This sounds super rad, and I am 100% with you on wanting to see more complete/released games at game festivals, etc. Quick question about submissions: Are you expecting a pitch for the game we would make now? Or are you accepting people based on their current portfolio of work?

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in reply to @PIZZAPRANKS's post:

jdm0079
@jdm0079

Responding to the addendum: I don't think this is quite the same thing as "paying for exposure," as it's a bit more like being able to set up at an exhibitor's hall at a convention, which almost always requries a fee. For what it's worth, ShortBox charges 45 GBP as an "exhibiting fee."

While I get the concern about "for exposure," I think that's misapplied here. And not giving the organizer a cut of anything would be expecting that person's labor for free.

Just a thought: One alternative, if you don't want to ask people to pay anything up front (if you want to do this at all—it'd be a ton of work!) would be to hold onto the first $20 of everyone's individual sales and then pay 100% out after that.

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baiyu
@baiyu

Seconding this entire post: hosting an event of this size is absolutely going to involve some extra costs beyond what you do for the usual Indiepocalypse zines, and a $20 fee is less in the long run over taking a percentage of sales. Highly suggest making John's suggestion an option if possible.

It may also be worthwhile to look for a sponsor for the event? If only to waive a few fees even. I'm interested in hearing what else people come up with.

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PIZZAPRANKS
@PIZZAPRANKS

At this point the initial fee left such a negative impression that I'm just calling it off but these are both good ideas (though I don't even know where to start with a sponsor) if I ever decide to try a different version of this in the future.

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brlka
@brlka

hey sorry if this is a silly question but i couldn't tell from the post - would this be an irl event with like, a bunch of games physically set up in a room, or an online event? either way it sounds cool, i could probably whip something up for it!

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PIZZAPRANKS
@PIZZAPRANKS

Yeah, I think organizers should generally also be paid for the time and effort that goes into organizing. But they also have to, you know, be able to offer some tangible with what they organize. (in this case i certainly did not)

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pancelor
@pancelor

fwiw the original idea excited me! sad to see its been called off. reading and thinking through it here, the change from "$20 fee" to "$20 exhibition fee after a minimum of $50 in sales. No upfront fee" seems excellent

be able to offer some tangible with what they organize

I think you're selling yourself short -- there are 25 great indie games out there that I've never heard about and won't ever hear about, but if they were all together in one place with you doing the exhausting work of shouting about them to anyone who will listen, encouraging people to promote them together, etc -- that sounds valuable. idk how to get the vibe of a craft fair into an online setting but it'd be very cool if you figure something out

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futureruins
@futureruins

Responding to addendum: I honestly feel that asking for a fee to have operation costs covered being equated to having to pay for exposure is a very bad faith interpretation of what you're doing here. I've seen exhibitor fees going up to almost $500 in online events organized by small orgs where you can't sell your games, or do much. You're not a huge org, not even an organization.

You're a single person trying to shoulder an entire online thing by yourself and asking for a little help, I don't think that's bad. And even then, despite being a single person, you've proven that people can make some money from their small games with indiepocalypse--you're not a rando, you have a platform, and we'd help boost it, too. There are ways to reach out to the media and a wider audience.

You're giving people a platform to get more eyes to their games, yes, but most importantly you're giving them full revenue. Asking to cover for server/web/payment option costs is not outlandish. I know there are some people who wouldn't be able to afford the exhibitor fee, and there are ways of solving that without making you feel like you're running a grift here.

I'm sorry twitter had such a reactionary take--several of us were very excited about this idea, since it's something that's missing for smaller, more experimental games. I hope you find a way of making this in the future.

If there's anything we can do to help you out, please let us know. You're doing good work here.

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PRINCESSINTERNETCAFe
@PRINCESSINTERNETCAFe

Agreeing with everything Sol has said. I know of at least 10 people that were very excited about the idea and thought the $20 was a reasonable thing to pay for your labor.

Not sure who those Twitter indie devs are, but as far as I can tell they are in the minority and I believe those negative comments you received were in pretty bad faith.

I think you can offer a lot of value as organiser of an event like this, and I’m sure there’s people who would like to help out too.

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PIZZAPRANKS
@PIZZAPRANKS

I've been wondering if part of it is that I maybe too directly tried to adapt something that is more common in zine/comic culture (semi-regularly producing small works for events as a source of some income) into game culture where it's far less common. This also means that the average indie game developer likely has less from their art to then spend om events, which is something I of all people should know.

But I also recognize that I don't really have the platform/perceived value where I can justify asking for money and don't know if I ever will!

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futureruins
@futureruins

Here's the thing: how is that different from people being mindful of steam events and itch bundles and releasing games for those? I do agree that there isn't a big culture like there is in zine/comics, but I don't think translating it into games is inherently bad.

Also, yeah, we might not have the platform that a big indie comics festival has, but we all gotta start somewhere right? The queer games bundle didn't have a huge platform when it started, but it still managed to give people quite a bit of cash for their games. Specialized game anthologies also start from scratch and still generate revenue. It's a community effort for sure, but collectively we could get that audience!

Sorry for leaving huge walls of text btw, I don't want to overwhelm you further. It just sucks that the criticisms you've been given are a bit more destructive than what I would've liked, and I wouldn't want you to see this as a terrible idea. It's good! And it can be improved! So yeah.

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PIZZAPRANKS
@PIZZAPRANKS

The first big difference is that I am infinitely smaller than itch and steam. I'm basically nothing if you haven't heard of Indiepocalypse and in some cases probably still nothing even if you have.

And yeah, I generally try to look to and learn from other mediums have both been around longer and have had more dedicated indie spaces/events for longer. But I think I certainly overstepped with what I could do with this one and probably overstepped a little with my correction to criticism. But I also have this (likely overstated) fear that my connection to indie games is extremely tenuous and any disapproval/bad vibes/etc. is the beginning of my end.

And don't mind the wall of text, it's the benefit of something like cohost!

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futureruins
@futureruins

Again, we all have to start from somewhere, and even if you're the one to set it up you'll still have 100+ people also doing marketing work to get it done, but i get you. I also get the anxiety about hanging on a thread in the indie space..it sucks that we have to feel like this. But you haven't done anything horrible worthy of shunning you out, that's for sure.

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MOKKA
@MOKKA

You were essentially setting up something like a Vanity gallery and asking people, who most likely don't have a ton of disposable income to pay you in order to maybe sell some of their stuff, is not very well thought out.

I get that you have to pay something to make this work, but if you're not able to do this, without extracting money from people who don't have much, maybe do it differently, or not at all.

What I just find curious, is how folks got upset about your idea, when this stuff is happening all over videogames and other creative spaces. It's generally awful, but also it being a common practice somewhere else doesn't make it okay.

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PIZZAPRANKS
@PIZZAPRANKS

One the things I'm trying to figure out is whether people feel organizers shouldn't be paid for their time/labor in general or if just in this particular situation I don't have enough value that paying me feels justified.

I also realize that the average amount of money made from their art for indie devs is probably much closer to zero than that of the comic/zine artist that I styled this event on. Which was really an oversight on my part given how many people have told me Indiepocalypse is the first time they made money from their games. Or at least the most money they've made.

Now obviously you can't speak for everyone, but I'm trying to get a better perspective on this and think cohost is a much better place to talk about it than twitter.

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MOKKA
@MOKKA

I really don't think that it's about paying you what you're worth, or what value you're offering, at least not from my end. I have a general problem with this kind of structure, where creators pay a platform holder for the privilege to have a chance to maybe make money off of their work. I don't think it's a good system, because you are guaranteed to get paid by the people who exhibit their work through you, while they may end up with nothing in return.

I was planning on writing a longer post about this topic for blog (not about your idea specifically by the way), but here's roughly where I stand:

If you want to create alternative structures that help smaller and niche creators to keep existing in this space, replicating existing structures is not the way to go. I really like the general idea here, but I think stuff like this should be done on a level where every party involved has the same stake and ownership over it, instead of it being a service you provide.

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PIZZAPRANKS
@PIZZAPRANKS

I think it may just be a difference of opinion/preference, at least in our particular case.

For example, every few months I attend a punk flea market with a small tabling fee ($40 for me but it varies based on the space you rent and whether you bring your own table*) where sometimes I have decent sales and sometimes I barely have any and that's fine by me. I don't need or want to have a stake in every event I go to and like the simplicity of just signing up, paying the fee if I'm accepted, and working just my table at the market.

I often view exhibiting fees (mostly when they're relatively small) as part of supporting the people who do all the organizational work that I'm glad I don't have to deal with. (entry fees where you pay for the privilege to be judged are certainly vile though) Especially when those people do other work that I have no direct part in but am glad exists. In my very specific case, on the outside chance I got a full $2000 in exhibitor fees it would only account for ~10% of the money I've lost paying devs through Indiepocalypse. It's certainly not a money making venture in the grand scheme of my independent art work.

I also think that plenty of groups/events take waaaaaay more than they give. I remember there being an online showcase that cost like $500 if you even got in after paying something like a $75 entry fee. But I also think organizational work as its value! But I also don't think either approach is strictly right or wrong and more likely are best suited for different situations.

*As a side note I checked the rental rates for the venue they rent and with just a broad headcount from memory I think they more than cover their fees, though not substantially more.

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PIZZAPRANKS
@PIZZAPRANKS

You're coming from the perspective that every event that charges a tabling fee to sell you work is bad which I don't think is the case. Do you think all organizational work should be unpaid or done by direct participants with the pay being whatever you get in front the event itself and split?

My specific goal with this event was both to make events where games are being sold instead of just previewed more normal while also further encouraging people to pay for smaller games.

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MOKKA
@MOKKA

I don't think that I said that organizers should not be paid? What I'm asking is why it's more important that the organizer is getting paid, than the people whose work is being sold during the event? Because that's what an upfront payment is.

It might very well be the case that some people go out of an event like this with a loss and in that context, I don't think that making sure that the organizer is paid first should be the highest priority.

Not saying that the concept itself isn't good, but please think of a way that does not involve some kind of upfront payment from exhibitors?

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PIZZAPRANKS
@PIZZAPRANKS

Yeah, that's my bad. I reading people saying "you should not pay dor this" as "you should pay for this at all" instead of "you should bot pay upfront for this". (Though, of course other people, or even you could mean that you should not pay for this at all) I think in this case a better solution is one where i would take the first $20 of sales with the rest going to the developers. It's already what I do for the consignment shop to cover print costs so it's strange that I didn't carry that logic over to this. Honestly, I think that after seeing a month of people promoted ShortBox and it being standard practice I naively thought it'd be no issue.

This is why I wanted to talk about it (and thanks for talking with me) because I do still like it and think it could be cool! But people immediately dismissing it for what I (once again, naively) thought was an understood standard practice was disheartening.

Also, sorry for any weird structure or formatting, unless I'm missing a setting/option cohost is not built for long reply chains on mobile.

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MOKKA
@MOKKA

Oh it's all good and yes, the reply chains are just weird.

Problem on my end is that I get fairly aggressive about this stuff, because most game exhibitions are incredibly awful. I'm not very good at telling, if I've crossed a line, but just in case apologies for being that confrontational.

The thing is that I really want for something like this to exist, but preferably in a way that moves towards structures that are just not a repeat of what's already there. Doesn't mean that I should expect this from you, or anyone else though.

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PIZZAPRANKS
@PIZZAPRANKS

It's fine! I knew it wasn't perfect when I posted it so but I generally less concerned with something being perfect because I can always change it. I made it up after all!

Like, I've spent 3 years through Indiepocalypse, the radio show, 2 showcases, and general promotion trying to move games away from the endless grind and to help open more space for people to actually get paid for a wider variety of games. So really, I'll probably still do this with the amended "free but I take the first $20 for my work" fee? Gonna run it by more people first.

I do still think organizations and exhibitions are not strictly terrible (especially when they involve renting physical space) but because games are largely a preview focused money pit, they're a lot worse in games. I think though that there is room for a relationship where organizers can provide a reliable platform and audience to veterans and newcomers alike while artists help keep the organizers afloat. It can certainly be easier than potentially constantly rebuilding events.

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caro
@caro

I think it depends on the specifics of the thing. Like, if this was an in-person event, no one would blink twice about an entry fee. Since it's digital, and the overhead costs are presumably much lower, people are going to be more skeptical about it.

That being said, you explicitly said that you only charge after a certain amount of money was made- that's not paying for exposure and potential sales, that's paying for guaranteed sales. Just in the past. Difficult to word, but perfectly reasonable.

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