M00se0nTheLoose

Dr. h.c., Reverend, Lord

Just a dude looking for better Social Media

Profile Gif from @Shalmons

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Personal Website
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pendell
@pendell

I think it says a lot that we all just expect everything on the internet to be free. YouTube doing all this stuff to try and crack down on adblockers - yeah, we know it won't increase their revenue in any way, but can you really blame them for trying? I think it's probably not unfair to say YouTube is the most expensive website on the planet to run in terms of how much bandwidth they have to serve the entire globe.

Now, yes, Google can probably run YouTube for all eternity and keep it alive via their profits from everything else they do, but I mean, if we did not specifically have Google essentially sinking their infinite money into YouTube just because it's got a captive audience, it would basically Not Exist. The only truly sustainable, economical way to video hosting and streaming really is to paywall it, whether it be paid access for viewers or charging people to upload. So, basically, the Vimeo model.

And then we can talk about how capitalism shouldnt be making these kinds of things effectively impossible unless you're an international multibillion dollar tech firm but that's a whole other conversation. At a certain point the internet just can't be Free anymore. Shit costs money.

Anyways subscribe to Cohost Plus.


pervocracy
@pervocracy

I know there was just discourse about "enshittification" but I think that really is the problem here. If YouTube wants to say "$10/month for all the Yous you can Tube," please, take my 10bux, I'm not that cheap, I used to pay for cable for goodness sake.

But there's no trust that they would sustain that deal for any amount of time. That we'd get more than a few months before oops, actually the 10bux level only covers ad-supported basic content at 720p30 but would you like to learn about our exciting upgrade packages?

Yes Ask Me Later


margot
@margot

i really do think a key thing here is that all of these companies complaining about the cost built the fact that providing the service for free into their models to gain users they could bait and switch later! it’s one thing to provide a product that people want to use, it’s a whole other thing to rely on having tons of money to let you float until you’ve captured the market.


margot
@margot

like you can say that they have to because of capitalism, but that’s the whole purpose of enforceable contract laws and buyer agency— it protects the companies from themselves as much as it does the users. if a company actually had to provide a service for a set amount of time, if their customers really COULD go elsewhere if things turned worse, yea it would make these companies infinitely slower and more conservative but it also means that competitors have to have an actual product and plan to be competitors. we don’t have this on the internet, and we can see what that’s getting us. no wonder it feels like a war between the users and the corpos


margot
@margot

sorry one last thing: it’s likely this will not change anytime soon bc the US economy is now fully entwined with this stuff and changing any of it too fast would likely destroy it and cause untold pain to the world economy. so that’s fun!


M00se0nTheLoose
@M00se0nTheLoose

It's something that crosses my mind a lot - the idea of paying for internet websites and services and such.

Companies need to make money to survive. One way a lot do so is via ads. However, people don't like ads. So, let's say we don't do ads. Let's also say we're not doing a bunch of data harvesting and selling that. Now we need users to pay for our services. But... are people willing to? I don't know almost anyone irl who would pay for things like Facebook, Twitter, Instagram, etc . Hell I don't think anyone I know would even consider paying for something like Cohost Plus. So what else can you do if you're a company? Make a product that people are willing to pay for maybe? But that takes money, and if people already aren't interested, where does that money come from? It just seems like a "ads seem to be the lesser evil" type scenario.

And then from a consumer end. I know personally, I am just now (aged 27) having any sort of financial stability. Even spending $5/ month on CoHost plus feels like a splurge. There's no point in my life, up until this point, that I would've been able to spend money on things like social media. A lot of my friends, similarly, just do not have any sort of extra money to pay for online services. And so I don't like the idea of everything become paid for, as it would seem tragic to me if we just accepted that people won't have money to access the internet for the first 30 years of life.

And so this problem in my head sort of goes round and round. Because not only is it tough on companies to come up with a way to sustain themselves, but also because I'm not sure how many people could afford to browse the web the way they do if every site had a subscription service model (in my head, imagining that ads don't pay enough and so companies would need to switch to this). The next thought is maybe you have a free version of your app/ website for people who can't afford to pay, and then a paid version for those who can pay. But of course, you'll need to give people who pay some benefit. And that benefit has to be good enough for people to feel like it's worth paying. But then... do you grow a user base at all? Do people who can't pay even want to use your site if the free version is shitty? Do people who can pay even bother trying your site, given the free version isn't great?

The "best" solution in my head is pay people enough so they have the extra money to spend and support platforms they believe in. But, of course, that would have to happen nationally and raising wages always seems like such a fight for some reason here in the US. Also, that doesn't really help in the interim.

It's just a shame because the internet has so many wonderful things on it. But the big social media sites are becoming worse and worse to use (in my opinion) and I don't know how any alternatives will survive with the costs associated to hosting sites and content.


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in reply to @pendell's post:

look at the threads about the poor quality of open source, people's expectations of baseline have been shifted to require the result of millions of investment for single person open source applications. and yeah some can compete, but not at scale.

but like, also, it means a handspun local volunteer org website looks much worse than what people expect from an Organization. so they move to Facebook groups

data and advertising are the way free has always been funded, from the store loyalty cards that give you discounts in exchange for knowing your shopping habits, to advertiser-driven television and news and radio

but every generation that gets a useful education, advertising loses more and more value, and scale goes up.

I'm not sure subscriptions are a solution either, because a lot of subscription money comes from people forgetting it's enabled -- that's why everyone switched to a subscribe model, but it's the best option cohost has

I payed a subscription for about eighteen months after I tried to cancel it. I knew it was still running but I didn’t feel like sending the emails etc. required to cancel it (and it was going to a creator so I didn’t begrudge them the “extra” money).

But yeah.

it's so infuriating on the handspun local volunteer org site because for some reason "we" collectively decided that any page refresh meant you should be punished with life in prison apparently, so completely static websites are React-based for ??????? reasons half the time

BOOTSTRAP WAS GREAT. IT WAS A BASIC LEVEL OF UI NICENESS THAT WORKED. AND THEN PEOPLE STARTED SHITTING ON IT BECAUSE "WAH IT ALL LOOKS THE SAME" AND THEREFORE MOVED TO THE COMPLETELY THE SAME PAGES ON FUCKING FACEBOOK

you're right, why learn css when you could instead learn css properties, then just write them as shorthand on every single element, i too love being paid by the character

On the other hand, Google basically did this to themselves. They crushed every potential threat to their profits by "generously" making everything free, wiping out the Internet's institutional memory of paying for services that we relied on. And they think that they're so indispensable and/or have built up enough good will that they can cry poverty and pass the hat...

in reply to @pervocracy's post:

yeah tbh the problem is mostly just that if you give any of these companies an inch, they just continue taking miles until everyone's sick of them. if streaming sites didn't raise their prices every 6 months and cancel everything good, i'd still be paying for them. i would never pay youtube a cent (and will continue spitefully blocking ads forever) because i know from a decade+ of watching them fuck up that the minute they get that cent, they'll turn around and fuck with another marginalized creator. i know netflix will cancel everything i like, i know everyone else will raise their prices and force me down to a tier where i still have to watch their repetitive fuckin ads (and what profit is there in showing me the same ad 2938743 times in a day?!). i want to pay for nice things in theory but in practice, at least with streaming video, there just aren't very many nice things to pay for. :(

I don't think the big ones ever going to re -build trust, and I'm not sure they could if they wanted to.

We need them to be replaced with something that makes stronger guarantees. Some day itch.io will get purchased OR it will get into financial trouble, and it too will get compromised, because that's how capitalism goes. Entropy increases. So there's nothing trustworthy enough, at least, nothing that doesn't have external controls keeping it that way.

You know a service that's always been 99.9% reliable since the day it was founded, literally centuries ago? The USPS. Hmm, what is it about that model that worked so well?

Yeah, you're right. Even for Cohost, honestly. I trust the Cohost staff not to trash the site for some fractional-pennies-per-click scheme, but if someone came along and offered them tens of millions of dollars to buy the place? I can't ask them to turn down lifetime financial security.

Right now the strategy for users is basically just to enjoy it while it lasts and hope someone else starts up a scrappy little project that stays scrappy for another few years.

But it sure would be nice if there were more services that operated like reliable utilities instead of being allowed and incentivized to do the digital equivalent of bulldozing a playground to build a shopping mall.

100%. They made something neat, I'd be happy if they got something nice for it. But as soon as that happened, I'd be looking for something else, because it's not a utility.

At least society gets some benefit in the form of knowledge about how you COULD build a social media site if you wanted to operate it like a paid-by-taxes utility.

in reply to @M00se0nTheLoose's post:

in my mind there are a few solutions, but none of them are really realistic. unfortunately i think the internet is in kind of a dead end trajectory no matter what we do— that’s not to say it will die, but it’s very likely that most things we take for granted will not exist in anything like the form they are right now. but honestly maybe that’s okay! maybe we can make a new vision that actually Works. but that’ll probably take a revolution of some kind

Yeah exactly. I haven't come across anything that seems both viable and what I'd consider morally good. Like, I'm sure mega corps can keep making new sites and throw money into bottomless pits. But I feel like mega corps are the reason things current social media sites feel like they're getting worse lmao.

Also just in general the internet getting worse. Youtuber SavannahXYZ made a video poking fun at this But since everyone is trying to optimize for SEO, results for what I'm actually looking for are harder to find. Have to add "reddit' to the end of everything to find something written by a human. But also like... in capitalism... why wouldn't you try your hardest to make yourself the top of the search results.

Idk, since Twitter started imploding I've gotten more into RSS and just keep wishing all my friends could keep their own websites and I could just subscribe to them via RSS rather than using a social media site lmao But I think that's too much effort for the average person