Modren

Hypnosis/MC erotica writer


PhormTheGenie
@PhormTheGenie

I always seem to struggle with reaction times, and the more I look into character guides and breakdowns, the more I see frame data being touted front and center.

Are people legitimately counting frames while playing? Are people actually able to see the individual frames??

The idea that someone can see an opposing move, recognize what it is, recall the frame data for that move, recall the frame data for their own moveset, select an appropriate counter, and then deploy it - all while keeping track of frames elapsed - seems superhuman to me. Like, all that has to happen in the span of a few fractions of a second. All I can do in that space is think "OH NO!"

But every guide I pull up seems to be very much about frame data, even for basic ones.

I always have a hard time knowing if my lack of reaction time and lack of dexterity preclude participation in this genre.


DieselBrain
@DieselBrain
  1. You do NOT have to visually identify or count individual frames. ever. so dont worry about that.

  2. MOST moves (or at LEAST normals) are legitimately designed to not be reactable on sight. Most humans can only react within around 15-20 frames minimum in most 60fps games, and thats in ideal circumstances when youre not trying to balance looking for lows, overheads, jump ins, dash in grab etc all at once. Even pros will get hit by shit's that "reactable" because of this mental stack. Essentially: you are meant to get hit by things, and you dont have to ebat yourself up for not reacting to everything.

  3. the purpose of frame data isnt to know all the frame data at once, at all times, in number form. Guides and videos include that information because it is important info, but NO ONE knows all of a game's frame data at all times, even the pros.

instead, frame data is there to give you hard numbers to work with in order to compartmentalize certain situations where timing is important, and to cut down on the amount of raw testing you yourself need to do.

ex: let's say Ryu hits me on block with a punch. The data says Ryu is -4 on block, so he will be able to act 4 frames after you are able to act. If you were to check your own character's frame data, maybe you notice "oh hey, my standing light punch is 4 frames of startup". now you go into the lab, set the dummy ryu so he does that move, block it, and try hitting standing light punch. it hits! Ryu cannot block! You now have a punish!

rather than memorize the frame data per se, instead, you can compartmentalize this into 2 different categories:
category A: "This move is not safe on block"
and Category B: "This is an unsafe move that can be punished with anything as fast as, or faster than, standing light punch"

and on the other end, if Ryu hits you with some special move on block that the data says has him at a frame advantage of -3, and your data shows you do not have any move that has a startup of 3 or less, then that move CANNOT BE PUNISHED. you can now file that move away in your head under "They are safe" and know not to over-commit to something when you see it.

but even more importantly: YOU DONT HAVE TO KNOW ANY OF THESE NUMBERS. not REALLY. Or at least, you do not need to know more than a handful that are universal (ex: fastest moves are universally 4 frames, and throws are 5 frames in SF6). You can just find each character's fastest button, go into training mode against the, and set the dummy so they press that button after blocking or getting hit by any attack, and then you can just TRY STUFF. Hit Ryu with button A, try to immediately hit button B afterwards, and if the dummy hits you? then you know you do not have enough advantage to work with. you can file various moves and normals under "It's still my turn" or "my turn is over" in your head, rather than keep in mind a huge list of numbers..

the numbers are useful, and you can SLOWLY add certain numbers to your mental cache (ex: "damn, every time i try to hit Ken after HK Dragonlash he hits me instead! let me go check the frame data and see what i can do"), become comfortable with that new data, internalize it through play, and then add more when you feel youre able to.

YOU NEVER, EVER, EVER HAVE TO KNOW ALL THE FRAME DATA, OR EVEN MOST OF THE FRAME DATA, FOR ANY FIGHTING GAME, IN ORDER TO JUMP IN AND HAVE A GOOD TIME

and as far as reaction times go: if youre new to any fighting game, youre gonna be bad at reacting to things. Some moves are designed to be somewhat reactable (ex: most overheads or moves that give heavy frame advantage), and others are not. Fighting games are about making educated guesses about what you think your opponent is going to attempt to do with their unreactable moves, while keeping an eye out for their reactable ones.

i hope ANY of this helps.


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in reply to @PhormTheGenie's post:

Yeeeah... when people claim to be able to see and react to single frames, the terrifying possibilities are either that A.) they're criminally deranged and might go for my throat if I let them take their hands off a controller, or B.) they can and do see those things within a reaction window, and doing battle with them is therefore pointless.

not a super expert here but i think one key advantage of knowing some basic frame data for your character is you better understand the properties of key moves, which informs you of their general safety or lack thereof.

like if you know that your big standing strong punch is -9 on block and -4 on hit (trash!), you're going to be a lot more careful about when you deploy it even if it has some other good properties. but if you have an incredible crouching move that's +2 on hit and 0 on block, you're going to find every opportunity you can to throw that into your mix.

so that's one more basic aspect at least.

Okay, this makes a lot of sense. Basically, using these as tools to quantify each tool in the toolbox more specifically than "fast" or "slow", and find the gradients between them. Then to use that data to know your safest options.

Rather than it being a constant realtime counting and comparison thing.

Much appreciated ❤️

i'd say it's pretty rare to know the frame data for EVERY move but you get a lot of generalizations like "okay, that was a heavy attack, so i at LEAST have enough time after i block it to press a light attack of my own." "This move has a lot of windup, so if I press my fastest normal I can interrupt it."

and oftentimes that is not coming from studying frame data, but just from trial and error while playing matches. you block something, try one of your moves while the opponent is recovering, then take note of if it worked or not.

GENERALLY speaking, frame data in fighting games tends to work such that if a move has fast startup, it's unsafe on block, and vice versa.

i think it's good to know which of your moves are safe and unsafe on block so that you can plan accordingly, but you don't need to know the exact data. Usually people think about things in terms of "unsafe", "even", or "safe" but not much further than that unless you're getting really competitive and trying to win majors.

of course there are some players who like to memorize as much information about every character as they can, but it's definitely not the norm or required

this response is great, i just want to also add real quick that the times that knowing frame data is useful are usually more out-of-game planning than in-game decision making.

if you want to know things like, why does this move always lose to my opponent's other move, is it slower or is there another reason? is it possible for this move to link to this other move and i'm too slow, or is it mathematically impossible? is it possible to try to react to this problem, or do i just need to not be in that situation in the first place?

those types of questions you'll want frame data for, although the odds are that if you're playing a decently popular game/character, someone has already answered them for you and you don't even need to worry about it unless you want to!

Okay, so by using that data outside of actual matches, you can get a more clear picture of how to think of your tools - and use those generalities in the event. So, knowing this is safe, or that comes out slow - rather than it being instantaneous mental math.

That makes a lot of sense. Thank you!

I'm not particularly dextrous or quick on my feet (fingers?) myself, but imo there's still plenty of joy to be had in fighting games. Particularly if you have friends or a community to play with. It's always an option to be like "I'm just here for the vibes"

frame data is just the ultimate reference point of what is actually going on. it's the physics of the game engine. you can study physics offline to improve your techniques, but you don't need to know the physics of subatomic particles to kick someone's ass, you just need to know how to kick their ass.

all other things being equal, if you have bad reflexes or visual acuity then you are at a disadvantage. but rarely are all other things equal: you could have better fundamentals, you could practice combos or whatever more, you could spend your resources more efficiently, you could know the matchups better, you could read your opponent's intentions better.

when chased by a bear (playing a fighting game), you don't have to outrun the bear (play perfectly), you just have to outrun the other guy (beat your opponent)

Your second point resonates with me a lot. My general experience with fighting games tends to be that I get my ass beat inside out without any chance of participating, and no one has a good time - I'm not learning or improving (because all I get out of it is "You suck") and my opponent isn't enjoying it (because it's a squash). Learning to build up some other strengths that aren't twitch-relfex or reaction based could provided some inroads.

My brain is not fast enough to perceive a single frame. Just not something that, after (counts it up) OVER 28 years of playing fighting games I've ever been able to do. I'm so bad at it that I'm not even sure it's a thing that's possible. Is this all just a mass delusion of the FGC that people are perceptive enough and can react quickly enough to follow stuff like that? No clue.

When I was younger, in my mid teens up through my late twenties, I would play fighting games allll the time with friends locally. I started out as just a button masher in each game and slowly learned which character(s) I liked best and how to pull off more and more of their moves and what their basic moves were like etc. I still never got to be any "good" at fighting games during that time, but because the friends I was playing with were of similar skill levels, we had a lot of really fun and cool matches. Because that's the thing about fighting games; no matter your skill level, and yes especially if you're playing against others with similar levels of skill, you can recognize when you've done something that feels comparatively skillful and enjoy that feeling .

Sadly I don't have anyone local to play fighting games with anymore... and playing online isn't an option because I can only use wifi for it and our wifi SUCKS. I still play single player stuff though, and a few years ago I actually started learning how to do some combos for the first time in my history in Skullgirls. Fighting games are just a lot of fun in my opinion if you treat them like a casual good time. I'm not super competitive so this has never been a problem for me. ...I mean, bit off topic but, my favorite deck in MTG of all time was one that made my opponent's deck(s) play better so I could easily steal cards from them to use as my own and it very rarely WON but was always super FUN) I love going into training modes and just using them as a sandbox to learn new things. It's a nice relaxing time and it actually does a pretty good job of getting my mind off of other things.

So no, if you DO have a lack of reaction and/or dexterity, it doesn't preclude participation in the genre in any way. IF you want to play casually or ESPECIALLY if you want to play competitively however, and you find yourself always struggling against opponents you're usually matched up against, it might be advisable to go looking for beginner communities or "learning" communities within the FGC so you can play with folks that are at a lower skill level and hopefully be able to not only have a lot of fun, but also get better over time, especially with your instincts (My instincts have, I think, been the only thing I've reliably improved upon during all these years of playing lol).

So yeah, I hope you can have a lot of fun with it, that is the whole point after all, just having fun ;) Anyway, have a good one pal, <3

I've been playing fighting games since like... 1992, myself. And it's always been mostly a casual fun thing to do with friends. It never got super competitive, nor did it get really professional. But this was like... A bunch of highschool nerds playing the Dreamcast at 2 AM

I kinda miss that vibe, when it was mostly people just having fun at roughly the same skill level. These days I lack anything resembling a friend group to play with. Local or otherwise. And most groups I might look to join, it always feels like "How good does one have to be to play here?"

I even get too worked up to play online lobbies. I'll just get smashed into paste.

But you make a good point about it being an evolution of skills over time. And you can't do that unless you get out there and spend the time to get the feel of it.

Thank you. You have a good one, too! ❤️

Alot of folks have given good responses to this so ill just add a nice metaphor that relates to your science expertise.
frame data is the specific measurement for how fast or slow a move feels.
Like you would feel like maine during winter is cold, and 5 celsius would be the specific temperature.

During matches most people feel it out but frame data gives us exact measurements of time.

Ive been playing fighting games for half of my life and ive only looked up specific frame data once and it didnt even really help me out

Goodness me. I'm lucky if I can get under 300ms. 😅

So a 200ms reaction time vs. 60 fps gives you a window of about 12 frames that you can respond, You are certainly testing above the average, so there's still hope for you. 💙

in reply to @DieselBrain's post:

jumping off my own post to give you a TLDR; the point is, you only have to engage with any of this data as far as it is interesting and fun to you. If learning ANY at all isnt your thing and you wanna go off vibes, thats ok. If you feel like you can learn a little but not a lot, its ok to just chalk up certain moves as "oh no!" moves for not. youll subconsciously internalize certain timings as you play more, data or not, so data is not the be all end all.

have fun, press buttons.

I jumped in to fighting games for real with Strive's release during covid and had no background in how plus/minus worked and just played around with I-No until I learned what was and was not safe to use in which situations. I lost a lot but losing can be fun.

yeah imo learning to find the value and even FUN in losing is important in fighting games. theyre like sports in that regard, losing WILL happen so you have to find ways to enjoy things even when youre not winning. Landing a cool combo youve been practicing? fun even if you lose. land a sick mixup you saw on twitter? fun even if you lose. Fuck around and see how long you can last using only your most annoying move vs the opponent? Fun even if you lose. Landing that ONE MOVE YOU THINK IS SO FUCKING COOL HOLY SHIT? Fun even if you lose.

micro victories!

I think a lot of that becomes intuition about what is and isn't safe or unsafe, and having a feel for the timing without knowing the numbers. (My problem is that my fingers can't do the basic combos the game's tutorial says I should be able to do, yet alone get consistency on directional input.) (Thanks Thems Fighting Herds)

one thing that i don't think anyone has brought up... it's really natural to struggle with reaction times when you're starting out, because you don't know what you're supposed to be reacting to. For all you know, there's 30 different things they could do here! But when you play a lot, and start naturally absorbing the patterns and flow of things, you can know in that instant that there's exactly two reasonable things they can do. And that's when you can react in a split-second at the slightest trigger, or at least take a darn good guess!

good luck with your fighting game journey, hopefully it's a fun one 😄

I remember I did not start concerning myself with Frame Data until I was trying to learn Tekken 7. I made an actual effort there because learning how faster your character's launcher is is important. Before that it was just, well I'll do whatever I think will work

And yeah what helped me in Tekken was, yeah, going "okay this move is safe to throw out whenever, I can only use my launcher in these conditions, this other is only safe to throw out in these circumstances, this move I should probably avoid at all costs," etc. and contextualizing it that way