MxAshlynn

coder, producer, music fan, teagirl


my building-gamer blog
cohost.org/MxBuilder
my yurivania shrine
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in reply to @MxAshlynn's post:

I like picking up funny little items and getting cool abilities from them

I like optional upgrades, like most of Axiom Verge’s weapons

I like areas being recontextualized by uncovering new blocks you didn’t realize you could destroy or passages you didn’t know would connect back to them

I like environments that are weird and vague and blend together while still being very distinct

I like metroidvanias. A lot. They’re good.

i don't play a lot of metroidvanias, but my favorite thing about them, when i do, is that feeling when you get to a place before you were "supposed" to. both in the "OH SHIT, that enemy is way too powerful for my abilities" sense, and in the "i just figured out how to get to a place in a way i probably was not intended to" sense. bonus points if the game accounted for these! i love that metroidvanias being so nonlinear makes them prone to some amount of hackiness, and it's good when the game acknowledges it.

also, finding secrets (although i don't really like backtracking to find secrets)

yeah, no problem!! also, elaboration after reading other folks' comments: backtracking for secrets is fine (even great!) as long as there's a clear indicator that this is something you should come back for later, and also a way for you to know when you have the tool/ability you need for it. for example, noticing that "there's something over there, i can just barely see it, but i can't jump far enough to get to it", having it nag at you, and then getting a dash jump ability later so you can finally go back and figure out what it is. map markers are great for this also! and something i'd really love to see in a game is a map marker with a field to add a written note, since i've got an awful memory and tend to pick up/put down games a lot (i'm not sure if you'd have room for that if you're making this in GBStudio, but throwing it out there)

the kind of secrets i don't like backtracking for are the sorts that aren't immediately clear that they're there - either there's some kind of sensing ability you need to be able to even know about them, or they're hidden out of the way AND require an ability you wouldn't normally have yet - so if you want to 100% the game you either have to backtrack a ton or look up a walkthrough.

tl;dr secrets that function like long-term puzzles are great! secrets that need to be found through trial and error or combing (or googling) are the ones i don't like.

Like:

Exploration, mystery and sense of progression
Environmental storytelling
Thematically fitting abilities
Big challenges that have big rewards
Providing multiple ways to reach areas
Using level design to build up tension before boss rooms or important events
Optional upgrades that new players can collect to reduce the difficulty
Making sure that the player learns to use the abilities they unlock

Dislike:

Pushing the player out of easily reachable areas with just "maybe I shouldn't go further yet"
Leveling up by grinding because you end up accidentally breaking the balance if you get lost a lot
Overusing keys without really good lore reasons
Making essential collectibles hard to notice
Losing money when you die even though things essential to new players are bought with big money
Putting difficult optional challenges to places where new players might mistake them as mandatory

Something like that. I'm a big fan of metroidvanias, so I tend to enjoy them quite a bit even if they don't get everything right. 🙂

Thank you! This is a lot to think about, I appreciate it!

If I may ask a few questions:

When you say "overusing keys", do you mean items like the "Jewel of Open" in Symphony of the Night that only unlocks doors?

When you mention leveling up through grinding, do you prefer metroidvanias without RPG-style leveling?

Thanks so much!

Overusing keys as in, well, the player can unlock new locations by obtaining new abilities already. That just feels much more exciting to me than plain keys. One or two keys is fine, and keys with a narrative purpose are nice, but just plain keys A, B, C and D feels lackluster compared to what you could potentially do with clever level and ability design instead.

Yeah, I guess I don't like RPG-style leveling that much. I don't exactly hate it either as it was its own kind of fun to two-hit bosses in Timespinner, but I can't help but feel that it's a mechanic that can break really easily. Getting stronger by exploring the map and collecting optional upgrades seems feels better to me. Maybe leveling up by doing could work better in non-combat-based metroidvanias, but I don't know if there are a whole lot of those.

I really like when the items/abilities you get aren't just glorified keys but give you some other benefit like maneuverability or combat options.

The biggest thing for me, though, is that feeling when you find a new item and remember that area 3 zones back that you now have access to.

A feeling I like that Metroidvanias are great at creating is "hinting at the future", that is, seeing like, a place, knowing that's a place you're supposed to go eventually, and having no idea how you'll manage it.

This happens a lot in small obvious ways, especially to people who know the genre - "I see a ledge I can't jump up to, so I know I'll probably get a double jump ability later!" But it's even better when you can befuddle the player or totally surprise them - "okay how will I get all the way up there? Maybe I learn how to fly?? Wait, I just unlocked the ability to jump on top of my own projectiles??"

Mystery and discovery are such a big part of the genre, and I think finding big and small ways to build that feeling are key to a great game ~ stuff that is incredibly hidden and optional is great too. Ideally, you can use secrets and new areas to make the world feel way bigger than it actually is.

I think both cave story and environment station alpha put optional boss/area hidden towards the end if you did some specific stuff during the run, resulting in a casual run having a end that feel like an end and not like if I had missed something important.

In bloodatained, there is a "bad ending" clearly not at the end that feel like a game over. I would have liked it feels more like an alternate ending, like when at the end of street of rage you take over the crime lord and/or I would have like to not be bounced to the last time I saved. I did beat the boss, even if not by following the good ending strategy. In FF X, if I loose in the coliseum, I simply get booted out of the fight with 1HP, I don't go game over

Biggest thing is a metroidvania with a unique central fun hook/mechanic. We get so many metroidvanias that it just doesn't feel fun now imo to play a well made metroidvania but with nothing different or new. That why vernal edge with the DMC elements and air juggling enemies felt so fun to play through and the central mechanic of a bungee like grapple hook rope in Rusted Moss was so fun.

I don't envy devs with how hard it can be to work in a new rarely used mechanic in a 2D/3D metroidvania that is fun and doesn't take away from the gameplay.

And of course it takes a lot of work to make a polished well done metroidvania even when your not doing anything new. Just look at HollowKnight/Silksong for that.

Buts its just its a genre driven by primarly a lot of gameplay and structure so it feels very repetive to play more then one or two games with a similar structure and no unique mechanics imo. A narrative focused game can do a different story or take on a story but its pretty hard to make a similar metroidvania formula feel different unless it actualy has a unique or very rarely seen central mechanic in it.

Like the pinball indie 2D Metroidvania game is very unique and honestly probably one of the most fun 2D metroidvania games I have played from its central focus on doing one new mechanic well for a 2D Metroidvania formula and marrying it well with the metroidvania formula and its quirks.

Blasphemous seems awesome and lools amazing visualy but when I tried it I was just bored a few hours in since it plays very close to any other typical 2D metroidvania.