NireBryce

reality is the battlefield

the first line goes in Cohost embeds

🐥 I am not embroiled in any legal battle
🐦 other than battles that are legal 🎮

I speak to the universe and it speaks back, in it's own way.

mastodon

email: contact at breadthcharge dot net

I live on the northeast coast of the US.

'non-functional programmer'. 'far left'.

conceptual midwife.

https://cohost.org/NireBryce/post/4929459-here-s-my-five-minut

If you can see the "show contact info" dropdown below, I follow you. If you want me to, ask and I'll think about it.


bigstuffedcat
@bigstuffedcat

Some people are cringe Idealists. They believe that the world of values determines whether a given actor in it is deemed cringe. Imagine Dragons, they might say, with its brisk couplet verses and top-1000-word-filled choruses, butts heads with the 2020s' hurt-animal reaction against simple answers and hollow promises. Their grandiosity is unwelcome in a time where the evil of those in power is more visible than ever; their complex past with Mormonism is at odds with the contemporary unwillingness to forgive.

Some people are cringe Materialists. A cringe object, say the Materialists, need not interface with longwinded philosophy to announce its cringe-nature. "Imagine Dragons' images are disjoint and do not form a greater whole", "Imagine Dragons' heavy use of cliches such as gold without elaboration is uncompelling", "Imagine Dragons' rigidity of structure reminds one of a student dispassionately writing an essay for Mrs. Schaffer's AP Lang"-- these claims are supported by the text. The Idealists only muddy the waters by wondering about time-specific ideas that will be soon swept away by history. Of course the analyst engages with ideas, but these ideas (of which "Imagine dragons is cringe" is one) arise firmly from the world of facts, and not vice versa.

You might say that the solution to this debate is the destruction of "cringe"-- in common parlance, "killing the part of one that cringes". While this is a liberating position (one I support wholeheartedly except in rhetorical instances like this essay) it is not a solution to our dilemma, because neither philosopher necessarily upholds the institution of "cringe". A cringe-Idealist might decry those who call Imagine Dragons cringe, for example, because the Idealist sees the critics as blindly parroting the values of their time.

At this you might fold your arms and say that the solution is compromise. But the elaboration of this position leaves much to be desired. If neither side can be fully rejected, we are left with mostly affirmative statements that cannot prove much of anything. Until a worldview with some backbone can be constructed, the resulting philosophy is powerful only because it is tautological.

No, there are no easy solutions. My own is controversial, and not without flaws itself, for it is less of a proof than a ritual. After Rachmaninoff, I call it the "all-night vigil". It is a lyric game for two or more players, as follows:

Listen to every Kidz Bop album, in order, without breaks. This is a meditation, and will be interrupted by sleep; this is not the weakness of your body, this is its mercy. Allow it. After those thirty-six hours, you and everyone you performed the vigil with must say, if indeed you believe it to be true:

"Wow, that sucked."

You may then talk about the text, but heed that period. If in your speech it resembles a semicolon, or god forbid a comma, the meditation has failed. Allow yourself this one claim, understood as true between you, if indeed it is true between you. Like a chandelier in a murder mystery movie, only after the sentence has hung longer than a breath can be held can you let it crash.


NireBryce
@NireBryce

alternatively: embrace cringe.

Someone mentioning you make them cringe is someone admitting you hold power over them in the form of some of their most visceral, base-level reactions.

You have leverage, start using it until those people are writhing husks unable to feel anything but vicarious shame about what they were taught the world was.

so-called "cringe culture" is a tool of social control. Many tools can be repurposed, broken, mastered.


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in reply to @bigstuffedcat's post:

... that it some involved ritual. I don't think I have the strength for it.

I was once a cringe eliminativist ("cringe does not exist") but now I am a cringe reductionist ("all statement about cringe can be reduced to statement about other qualities of the work; cringe is simply an aggregate of different attribute"). In your taxonomy, this would put me closer to cringe materialism than cringe idealism.

But really, the question here is "Is popular taste affected by "eternal" value or "impermanent" value?" Notice the "popular taste" here, because the way you frame the question is about group of people and not individual. I don't know what to think of "popular taste." I see pop music reviewer say things like "the public taste changed from slick production to a more raw sound" and I want to ask: are the people who bought the former record the same who bought the latter? If not, why are we talking about a universal "public taste?" If the statement boils down to "this song used to be at the top of the billboard chart, now it's this new song", what does the statement about "public taste" bring to the discussion? I am not saying pop reviewer are wrong for saying that, I am very stupid (don't contradict me, I know it is true) and I am constantly learning how to appreciate art criticism, I just don't know how to make sense of such statement.

The only move that help me understand my position is to return to the individual. Yes, yes, boo!, I know, a focus on individual actor is the plague of modern politic, but in the realm of aesthetic, I really don't see how it can be avoided. A lot of my reflection is influenced by my (miss)understanding of Wittgenstein, because I am that kind of dull. There is an art object. It has attribute. Attribute here are empirical fact about the object (for the sake of exemple, we will say "being blue" is an attribute, even though calling the colour of an object an empirical fact is problematic. All that matters is that there are empirical fact about objects.) Then there is a critic (or any type of art enjoyer.) They bring their own knowledge to the piece. When a critic says "the piece has an eerie mood", they are actually describing empirical fact about the piece (in this case, it's "being blue") Of course, it's typically more then one empirical fact they are pulling under one statement. So what do critic mean when they say "this piece made me feel angry?" Well, and again this is influenced by Wittgenstein, they are not talking about internal state, they are still talking about empirical fact about the object. "anger" is not (merely) a description of an internal state, but a description and a word designed to create expectation. But then, what does the critic mean why they say "this works is derivative"? What they are saying is "there are not many significative difference between this piece and similar piece." Of course, what "similar piece" mean vary. Per my theory, it cannot be entirely subjective, it has to rely on empirical fact, but which empirical fact are selected varies. The critic themselves has to clarify what "similarity" means. Ok, now for the big one. What does "good" mean? Well, "good" and "bad" are unique in that, they cannot be reduced to empirical facts. (see Wittgenstein Lecture on Ethics , which I highly recommend.) They are prescriptive term. I'm still trying to work out what it means, but we can approximate it to "I want more of object with these empirical property." I'm not entirely satisfied with that explanation, but it will do for now.

That was Quidam's theory of aesthetic. There are several problem with it, like some critic want to inspire further thinking, and I love when they do that, but it doesn't fit with my model. Wittgenstein said that philosophy "leaves the world as it is", and that's my goal with aestheticism: I don't want to tell critic what to do, I want to understand what they are doing.

I took some time to digest this, because

I see pop music reviewer say things like "the public taste changed from slick production to a more raw sound" and I want to ask: are the people who bought the former record the same who bought the latter? If not, why are we talking about a universal "public taste?"

is such an piercing way of describing that phenomenon. Chef's kiss.

I think in non-polemic real life I generally believe in individualized art criticism. The alternative is believing in a benchmark "reasonable individual", and if I had that kind of faith to throw around I'd rather just pick a religion. But it's also not very interesting to give pure ordered pairs (fact about the work, real number between 0 and 1 that communicates how much I like it), which is kind of what everything at that end of the scale ends up being. Better to build, if we can, on the facts we agree upon.

Or maybe we accept that there will always be a Wittgenstein's lion that we yearn to communicate with, so we view our art criticism, treat it as art for all intents and purposes, and if the bubbles of qualia that happen are more intriguing than convincing, so be it.

Thank you for replying! I was really worried I had just imposed my rant in somebody comment. And than you for taking your time.

I do fear sometimes that people have such different value system that we can't communicate aesthetic experience. I have to believe that we are not trapped by our own subjectivity, that we can change and reach some new place. It won't always help, we are the lions to someone else, but it can help a bit.