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Years ago, Spouse got offered a promotion. It was a great opportunity: career advancement, a raise, upskilling... Only problem: it would require us to move to Detroit.

At the time we had been in Chicago for a little over a year and we were both in love (still are! we're simps for this city). It's just a perfect match for our values and our lifestyle: it's beautiful, it's comfortable, it's easy to move around without a car, we have good friends here.

We really didn't want to move. So Spouse rejected the promotion. The company still pushed for it, offered different incentives, Spouse explained moving out of Chicago was a dealbreaker.

So the company invited both of us to Detroit. We would spend a couple of days there, being wined and dined, exploring the city. They would show us around so we could see that Detroit was very similar to Chicago and that we would surely be as happy there as we were here. They arranged for our accommodation and a car rental.

In which they accidentally let the riff-raff into their exclusive club


We are staying at the Detroit Athletic Club, a "private social club" that requires all members to pay hundreds of dollars a month in membership, on top of the thousands of dollars in initiation fees. Also you need to be recommended by existing members. The clubhouse is right in the middle of the "entertainment" district and also the kind of place that only the most boring specimens find aspirational. Lots of fancy rooms with fancy art cordoned off because what if they get ruined. Bland "classical" music heard at a very low level, coming from hidden speakers. We stayed at one of the guest rooms, but, since we're not members and a member vouched for us, we needed to follow the rules. Lots of rules.

Lots of rules about what is or isn't allowed based exclusively on "propriety": what kind of clothes you can wear (dresses below the knees, slacks and blazers), can you talk on the phone (no), can you eat a snack (also no, unless in designated areas), can you speak Spanish (not explicitly forbidden but we got disapproving looks), can you be Black (apparently only if you're one of the people holding the doors open for members to walk through).

I understand the company wanted to impress us with this choice of lodging. We were not impressed.

Yeah but where did you go?

Anyway, our first full day there, while Spouse was doing Work Things and visiting Work Places and schmoozing with Work People, I was left to explore on my own.

I walked around downtown Detroit and honestly, had a good time! It's a nice area, cute shops, beautiful architecture (the Guardian Building is an Art Deco dream), good food, etc.

But I could only walk around the downtown area. Detroit is a car city (historically! cars are a big deal there!) and I am not a car person.

That night we had dinner at the rooftop bar/restaurant of the DAC, overlooking the baseball field. Spouse's boss and prospective peers invited us there to chat about the job and the city and try to talk us into moving there.

At some point the boss' wife asked me what I spent the day doing, so I told her I had a good time walking around downtown. So she asks:

"Where did you go?"

"I just walked around"

"But where?"

"Like, around downtown, ended up at the Guardian Building..."

"I'm sure the company would comp your Uber ride next time"

We kind of talked around each other for a few minutes because I did not understand that she thought I walked because I didn't know how else to reach my destination, and she didn't understand that "walking" was my destination all along.

Detroit is the same as Chicago

When it came to them "pitching" Detroit to us so we would move there, the table listed entertainment venues: theaters, the baseball field, etc (all very nice). They pointed out that the city was being "revitalized" with all the new construction everywhere (true). They told us how much they enjoyed living there by describing the restaurants they went to and the casinos they gambled in (there is one just a few blocks from the DAC!).

They also mentioned property values. It would be affordable for us to get a good place and it would actually increase in value, see? The city is making a comeback so a home in a desirable area would be a good investment.

Truly, there's nothing Chicago has that Detroit lacks, they are the same.

We acknowledged Detroit's many charms and repeated that the problem was mobility. It's so easy for us to get around in Chicago, it really wouldn't be as easy if we lived in Detroit. That's where we were wrong, according to these business people. You see, this guy lives in that suburb and he can just hop on the highway and be downtown in thirty minutes, tops. That guy and his wife live in a different suburb and even at peak hours they don't need to drive more than forty minutes to work. And there's so much parking everywhere!

Where do you live?

And that's the thing, isn't it? We were having two different conversations and I hadn't realized until that point. For us, living in a specific city means living in the city, not a suburb of the city. But it also means spending time in said city. It means knowing our neighbors and our neighborhood. It means frequenting a specific corner shop and an art studio. It means going to the park or the beach or out for a walk. It means seeing a flyer for a cool event while drinking coffee and then taking the train to said event.

For everyone else at that table, living in a specific city means nothing. They could move to Chicagoland tomorrow and their lives wouldn't be much different. They will live in a tolerable suburb, get into their car, curse at traffic, park somewhere, get out of the car and into whatever venue they went to, back to the car, back home. None of these people knew their neighbors. None had an interest in knowing them. The main difference between cities, for them, was "property values" and whether they could turn housing into a lucrative investment and if so, how fast. Regardless of where they live, they will spend time in the same places: their car. Their home. The name of the fancy "Athletic Club" they drank at would change. Not much else.

Ew, people.

At some point, while talking about how great our living situation was in Chicago, I mentioned that we were like two blocks from an Aldi and how convenient it was to walk there for groceries.

One of the ladies at the table laughed nervously and said she could never shop at Aldi because "all kinds of people shop there, you never know!"

Look, I was trying my hardest not to cause conflict that would jeopardize Spouse's job, but this lady made it so difficult for me. So I asked "You never know what?"

"You never know who else may be shopping there"

"Well, I shop there"

I think she realized I was not going to share her disgust of Aldi shoppers, because she said something about them not carrying her favorite brand of whatever and changed the topic.

At a different point in conversation, someone started talking about how cool self driving cars were and how they were almost here and how they would revolutionize transportation. Someone else agreed and they started imagining a bright self-driving future, which involved... Paying a subscription to like, Uber or someone, and have a self driving car pick you up and drop you off whenever you needed a ride.

Spouse laughed and said that sounded exactly like Uber right now, it didn't seem so revolutionary (clearly, by then Spouse was not interested in impressing any of these people). The suit in question replied that, because the self driving cars can "talk to each other," it would be more efficient and there wouldn't be traffic.

I said that trains and busses sounded more efficient and I've never been stuck in traffic while riding the Red Line, but maybe I spoke too softly because nobody acknowledged it.

Another executive said that he would never use a service like described. A car picking you up and dropping you off and then driving away to pick someone else up? Horrible. You never know who was in the car before you! It could have been anyone.

I thought he and the Aldi lady had a lot in common but didn't say anything, in case that ruined their respective marriages.

I also thought a train system would have been a hard sell for them.


That dinner made it very clear the trip had been wasted. Even if we could have been persuaded to move away from Chicago, these people would not be the ones to do it. They simply could not tell different cities apart from behind their windshield. They just couldn't see people from the rooftop bar.

They didn't want to, either.


btw if you like what I wrote here you can buy me a coffee


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in reply to @NoelBWrites's post:

That trip was one of the most surreal experiences in my life. To this day I can't stop thinking about the DAC, its wall of illustrious member pictures, its gold leaf furniture... and its extremely cheap one-ply toilet paper

oh hey it is me remembering every time i tried to explain housing instability to one of the gentry and they just couldnt get over the first hurdle of "you dont get to choose where you live?" and checked out.

i have been, spiritually, the aldi shopper in these situations and damn.

I remember one coworker at a previous job listening to me complain about my housing situation and responding with "Why don't you just buy an apartment?"

Yes, Karen, I'll get right on that with my 30k a year and my foreigner's credit history.

Legal, but boring. They wouldn’t understand that they have to run, you’d find them all in the parking lot having a stressed phonecall with someone or other because they can’t get the car to go

I find it extremely uncanny how the opinions and values of the businessmen in this story can be so... Easily reproduceable. If anything I find it harder to find people who would value living in a city because they are in a city, than just a place where they work and sleep.

I just got back from one of the biggest cities in the world the other day (São Paulo), and I kept feeling the extremy uncanny, well feeling that the city was hostile to the people, and in turn made people hostile. And after reading your text, it really reinforces how the richer people can just... Both ignore and reinforce that facet. Why worry about building a community if I can just live in my own isolated house and take an uber straight to work, right?

This was a wonderful (if not slightly existentially terrifying) read!

And by the way, I wrote a little bit of what I felt during that visit, if it might pique your interest! It left me quite impacted, and I feel like your text resonates with what I felt. https://cohost.org/explorermoo/post/1931480-this-city-s-vibes-ar

They do see people around them as background noise at best and threats at worst. "Community" is a marketing term for them.

I wrote a little bit of what I felt during that visit,

that looks super interesting, I'll give it a read

oof yeah

You also touch on (one of the reasons) why it's so hard for the US to have an actual rail system: if you need a car to leave the train station at your destination... why not drive there anyway?

they’re extending the metra out to rockford starting in 2027. on the one hand, exciting for me because i’m from rockford and still have friends there! on the other hand, i don’t know how i’d get around after the train ride. i guess i could bring my bike? have someone pick me up in their car?

They had the same brilliant idea in the 1960s in the UK in the form of the Beeching cuts: hey look! A third of railway routes and stations are really low traffic! We can just close those! … and then of course a third of traffic on the rest of the network vanished because how else were people going to get to the major routes?

I’m not sure what the moral of the story here is but I guess it’s that it’s not necessarily enough to (re)build; without active pressure towards keeping public transit available it’ll just go away

thank you!

And yeah, that little trip stayed with me for years because it's just so blatant. And saying those things! Out loud! To my face! as if nobody could ever disagree with them. Not even aware of how horrific what they are saying is.

Bwahaha that was a slow boil but it boiled

suit is vaguely right about "self driving cars talking to each other", traffic really could be more efficient...except for the fact that every time it's more practical for more cars to be added to the road, more cars will be added to the road. happens every time they add more lanes to the highways. in a different sense, it's the same problem as making gas-powered cars more efficient: yes, but what if you didn't pump oil from the ground to burn it? what if you didn't fill the entire road with individual self-powered capsules far oversized for the loads they carry? billions and billions of dollars spent every year in an attempt to make obviously impractical premises more workable, not realizing that they can never make headway. it's not possible. these are not solvable problems. make cars more pleasant to drive, they'll drive more. make cars cheaper and less environmentally unfriendly to drive! they'll drive more. the greed knows no bounds. the smog expands to fill the container.

you know what's a really easy way to make self-driving vehicles? rails. it's so much easier to just make things go forwards and sometimes backwards, with occasional decision points. sigh

Reminds me of the two glorious years I lived in New Orleans proper instead of the hell suburbs on the northshore that I have spent most my life. My dad literally cannot understand why I hate commuting. Though my parents freak our neighbors out cause they drive to the city twice a week just to hang out. Suburbanites have a really specific kind of brainworm.

My dad believes that the car symbolizes the freedom of you being able to go wherever you want whenever you want, while he says we just see them as appliances. When I ask him where exactly can I drive to besides going to work or making groceries, he just grumbles and mumbles something about millennials.

Honestly when I was 16, I had no personal reason to get a car, since I had no friends or places to go nearby even via car. I begrudgingly took a car they gave me, but it was a fun stick shift that I enjoyed. But in the end, it was something to get me to school, to college, and eventually to work. And it's such an expense. While I enjoy my sporty car, it's just a tool. I more and more wishing I just had good transport to places.

Two friends are getting married this month and they were briefly considering the DAC because one of their uncles or something is a member, but it would have been tens of thousands of dollars; and sounds like it wouldn’t have been that nice anyways!

my guess about their opinion on uber is: "the driver could be anyone!" but at that point most probably started to realize they invited less bigoted people into their midst. but yeah just a silly guess on my part.

wild story... but eerily relatable

My least favorite part of moving to the US (before I moved to Chicago, my beloved) was that getting groceries was an expedition. We needed to plan for the next week and if we forgot milk, we had to do a cost benefit analysis of driving back to get just milk or doing without until we needed more things

This is my life. This is how I live, fighting off car-brained people, advocating for walkable cities, for zoning that isn't based off raising property values. It's so tiring. It's so crazy how asking for public transport makes me feel guilty, and how I have to spend so much time saying that this will make life better for people who drive because it reduces traffic overall.

I recently moved back to Ohio suburbs to take care of some family business after living in Seoul for 6-7 years. This story felt even like when talking to my averagely middle class friends who never left. The suburbs is comfort poison! And it's not even that comfortable! I just feel like sprawl is this weird cultlike infection borne out of capitalism that gets away with it just because you have generations who never experience otherwise. Or! will ever have a chance to because there's this indoctrinated fear of being in the city and being forced to walk or travel with strangers.

oh i super feel this, i was at a wedding a little while ago for one of my (very rich) cousins-in-law and the wedding was in downtown madison. an absurdly walkable and bikeable university town that had an e-bike rental station right outside our hotel. and people gave us strange looks for walking a mile from the hotel so we could see the city during our weekend there instead of just having the hotel hire a taxi for us

(which, sidenote, i did end up passing through chicago for a few hours on the way back, and i super understand your feelings about the place; it's an absolutely stunning city, even from what little i've seen of it, and assuming my wife and i could manage paying for the move i would go there in a heartbeat oh my gosh. you can get trains that actually go to more than one place,)

Reminded of the time I was meeting some people in London and had to get there from Glasgow, so I just took the overnight coach. Arrived in London at Victoria station at like 6:30am on a sunny July morning. Wasn't meeting people until 11am at King's Cross. It's three and a half miles away so I had an absolutely lovely walk across the city in the early hours as the city was waking up.

When everyone had met up, people were baffled that I hadn't got myself a tube ticket yet. "Didn't you come in at victoria?" "yeah, and?" "how did you get here?" ".. I walked? It's not that far."

They looked at me like I had two heads. They saw london as a connection of waypoints that you fast-travel between by vehicles, I don't think they considered that you could travel from one waypoint to the other directly.

Not to knock the tube though, I wish other cities in this country had anything remotely as accessible in terms of public transit. Hell, maybe it's a GOOD thing that public transit is so ubiquitous that going via the road just doesn't occur to people.

I’ve been this person too. The tube map is a very particular kind of brain poison in that regard. In 2010 or so, when I started visiting London for the first time, I’d found myself an SVG tube map that kept all the stations in their proper places relative to each other. It’s a ten minute walk from King’s Cross to Angel, and at the time I would visit a pal who lived in Islington. I walked from there through Clerkenwell to Russell Square and the British Museum, discovering the Holburn Viaduct along the way, and I think that’s what truly unlocked my understanding that central London is just not that big.

Yeah! At one point that day we were looking at tube times on the map to get from one station to another and it was like... one stop on one line, change, and get a different line another two stops in a different direction - on the tube map it looked like it was a decent distance, then we saw a board with an actual street map and realised we could practically see where we wanted to go and if we'd just started walking instead of trying to figure out how to get there by tube we'd already be there!

Walking is how you see more things!! I've gotten those weird looks before

Also come visit Chicago! See our gigantic bean and be whelmed by it's beauty!

Or take the architecture boat tour and be actually overwhelmed by pretty buildings

i did actually plan to visit the bean! but we got there during the flash flood so my priority was very much more on doing something that was indoors so that i didn't get completely soaked through. the buildings are spectacular though omg,

chicago skyline from just outside millenium park during a flash flood! i took this picture and it's very pretty i think

I work with a lot of hilariously rich people at my job and they are 100% this. they have no concept of public services, no inconveniences, no interacting with the "lower class" whatsoever unless it is part of some business venture. they might as well live in a different universe. they only do what they want to do and see what they want to see. They are extremely overly concerned about time, and being at places on time, and spending absolutely obnoxious levels of money to get places faster because time is the only thing you can't buy once you get into generational wealth.

Every once in a while I have to break the illusion for them as part of my job and you would not believe how little they value other people that aren't in their exclusive club once the mask comes off.

I have personally seen someone throw down 6 figures like it was nothing to get somewhere 10 minutes faster. I could almost understand it if it meant seeing someone in hospital or something dire like that but it changed absolutely noting about the situation other than preventing them from being slightly inconvenienced.

The aircraft they wanted wasn't available so they paid out of pocket to get the quickest on-demand private flight that they could get. Once you add up paying the pilots overtime/on call fees, the catering, crew, fuel, company overhead, late call fees, etc.. it adds up in a hurry.

It definitely wasn't necessary and was just some sort of weird flex thing.

I unfortunately have dealt with people like these frequently in my life and it's when I like to bust out stories about being homeless or all my friends who are trainhoppers. These people are the base of fascism and are absolute enemies of humanity.

Ah, the surprise "one of the good ones"

I tend to mention I'm from Argentina after everyone else gives their opinion on immigration and/or Hispanic people.

But yeah, they're fascism's favorites because they have money, they have no empathy and they will throw people into a meat grinder if it means they get to be an ounce more comfortable and isolated

This is absolutely heart-wrenching. I found that I really love cities and dislike suburbs. I love commuting by bus or train because it gives me time to scroll through my social media and read articles. I love go out from my rental room and sit down at library and do a bit of my remote work in a noise of people around. I love to go for an evening stroll and get some boba tea from a local place. This energizes me. I would easily prefer to rent an expensive room in Brooklyn than anything outside in suburbs.

I would say that this lady would've been more dangerous to me, than a fair bit of "all kinds of people shop there" people that she means.

I cannot even conceive WHAT people in suburbs do. It's surreal.

I dunno how the math works out in NY but I recently worked out what it’d take to live in a two bedroom place if I spent £300/month less doing so, ie, the average monthly cost of owning a car. I’d have to leave my city entirely and live about a half hour drive away.

I think once you’re locked into the suburbia-and-a-car lifestyle it becomes impossible to envision living in the city because the city’s too expensive but the possibility that the car is optional is beyond your imagination.

Either drive 5 minutes to the local park (that's a 15 minute walk but of course there are no sidewalks until you're basically already there) or…I don't actually know and I grew up in the suburbs

Yup, this is exactly why I’ve lived in New York City most of my adult life and haven’t owned a car for almost all of that time. Big r/fuckcars vibe, you should post it there (if you want). The whole car culture thing just drives me nuts.

I know you were trying to minimize conflict, but bless your restraint for not giving "ew Aldi" the "no, I don't understand, who do you mean exactly" treatment.

I have never lived in a big city, but I hope to one day. God, just the dream of not owning a car . . .

I want to pull on one particular thread that underlies all of this:

What the fuck even is a social club anyways?

As far as I can tell, the main service/activity of a private social club is literally just that: socializing. What we in the Aldi economic spectrum call "hanging out."

They pay hundreds of dollars a month to hang out.

The money goes to various facets of that activity to make it worth hundreds of dollars, such as having people of color nearby acting conspicuously In Their Place. And like classical artwork or whatever.

But really, the main service they are paying hundreds of dollars a month for is for it to cost hundreds of dollars a month. To the purpose of ensuring that when they hang out, they are at no risk of hanging out with people who shop at Aldi.

Such a weird thing. If you don't want to hang out with someone, just don't. But no, they gotta go to lengths to ensure that it's physically impossible for """those people""" to hang out with them. Or nearby. In visible range, really. Those people are allowed in the space, but they are obviously and conspicuously not hanging out when they're present.

This is the same principle behind the design of lots of suburbia as well. Lots of resources dedicated to ensuring that something that wasn't gonna happen will definitely not happen.

What we in the Aldi economic spectrum

Dying at this

But yeah! They pay money to hang out at a place that costs money! Not only can they keep the illusion that other people don't exist until they need someone to hold the door open, they can now "network" with people with "connections". Because people are always a means to an end for them. Even people that would never shop at Aldi

Looking as white as I do lets me jumpscare people that say these things by casually dropping that I am, in fact, a Hispanic immigrant. Turns out I'm never part of "those Aldi shoppers" they are so scared of

toronto has become pretty much entirely dominated by people with this worldview over the past few decades. it's not that most people in the city feel this way, it's just that they're politically marginalized by the windshield crowd. it feels like living in an amusement park for suburbanites to visit.

thank you. the hardest part is I think that there's still so many cool things here- just diminishing. I didn't grow up here, but it's rougher for people that did, because they're constantly seeing ghosts of what it used to be like

Oh my God it must have felt like you were living in a Jordan Peele film in real life this is just absurd.

I hate to see my own family around me succumbing to suburban brainworms, the very idea of me going to Dallas, the nearest city to us, actively scares them. Like last week on a day off I took my little sister up to Deep Ellum a really cool walkable neighborhood, we were just there a while to get her some school supplies from a really cool little stationery shop, and they actually called me on my phone to ask what the hell we were doing in Deep Ellum, and to NEVER bring my sister there again. They're not racist people but they've been told there's "bad people" there and that it's a "bad part of town" and they take that at its word without thinking critically about who told them that and what it might actually mean. Society decays around us.

That's an interesting read, thanks for sharing <3

As a person without driver's license in a country way less car-centric than USA - i'm still surprised by all lifestyle differences between "walkers" and "drivers", even where i live.