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yrgirlkv
@yrgirlkv

is that most of them are very annoying because the original omelas story only barely suggests omelas is a real place. a huge chunk of it is spent interrogating what it would take to believe omelas is a real place. le guin spends graf after graf being like "there is as much sex or drug use or whatever in omelas as you, my reader, personally desire" because she's setting up the question of what it would take to convince the reader of the possibility of this utopia. the line that sets up the kid comes after the narrator describing the best festival ever and goes

Do you believe? Do you accept the festival, the city, the joy? No? Then let me describe one more thing.

i'm not suggesting omelas-the-story is totally unconcerned with what you do with or in omelas-the-place, because then it wouldn't end the way it does, but i think it goes understated that a big chunk of the story is the question whether the omelas that works without the kid is something you're willing to imagine at all.

i think isabel kim's "why don't we just kill the kid in the omelas hole" dodges most of this by playing with the abstract idea of omelas, rather than the omelas as presented in le guin's story. (literally it opens with the idea of omelas having capital-NH "Nice Houses," which strikes me as a much more concrete statement than le guin ever made about the place.) kim is writing as much about how people think about omelas, and to some degree about how "we" (modern people, & implicitly usamericans in particular) think about atrocities writ large, which makes her piece more interesting.

but almost every other omelas response i've ever seen is trying to solve omelas like it's a puzzle, as if there's a perfect solution. but it's like writing fiction about the person who's going to solve the trolley problem by knowing the secrets of how trains work, or rails, or being able to throw a knife really good so you can cut the ropes on the one person and they can run away. if you want to reject the premise of a hypothetical scenario, or even if you don't find it interesting, then great (i've never found the trolley problem to be tremendously interesting myself.) but like—don't mistake that for solving it.


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in reply to @yrgirlkv's post:

I recently read the Nk Jemisin piece. I think it is much more blatant about how we can't imagine a place like that, because we are conditioned to reject utopias... but the actual moral is odd. Really odd. I'm planning to write a chost about that.

If I had seen your comment a few minutes earlier than I did, I would never have written my chost, because this essay is so much more exhaustive, so much more insightful and just plain better written then the mess I did.

hell yeah

kn jemisin wrote a cool trilogy (brave enough to ask What If There Was A Moon, Would That Be Fucked Up Or What) but i haven't found her political commentary incisive at all.

imo she wishes she wrote let's kill the kid in the omelas hole

oh my god thank you every time I read someone published another story responding to Omelas I am automatically exhausted by it.

I did read Kim's piece and I found it better than most because it's less a response to Omelas than a response to Omelas Discourse but still. I don't think I got anything from it that I didn't already get from Omelas by being willing to engage with it on more than a superficial level. I don't know, I didn't dislike it, it just felt like someone explaining a joke to me, you know?

Also yeah I generally like Jemisin's writing but The Ones That Stay and Fight is honestly tedious.

Leave Omelas alone there already is a sequel to it and it's called The Dispossessed

Honestly The Ones That Walk Away from Omelas by Ursula K LeGuin is a pretty good short story! It's just that people have been determined to "solve" it since it came out and you can't really "solve" a metaphor, you know?

yeah—kim's piece like, works for me but i similarly don't think i'm getting anything new from it. aside from "stay and fight" the only other jemisin i've read is hundred thousand kingdoms but stay and fight has not at all inclined me to pursue more of her work

just recently i found myself describing Omelas to someone as a thought experiment and yeah, that's the point in it, it's exactly like the trolley problem, it's not meant to be "solved," it's like a Rorschach test for your own sense of ethics

the reason why "kill the kid" works is that it's not a repudiation or a deconstruction; it's an extrapolation

it even goes out of its way to poke fun at the people who would take Omelas and try to apply it as a microcosm of the real world, like (again) people who treat the trolley problem as something to "solve"

I don't need or even particularly want people to like NK Jemisin if they don't want to, but I think it is important to have the facts of her involvement with Isabel Fall correct -- she posted a handful of tweets expressing (poorly!) that she thought it was good that Fall had taken the steps necessary to protect herself. She took the tweets down after about an hour when it became clear that the tweets sounded Very Bad (which they did!). That's about it.

Yes, the tweets were bad; yes, her handling of the situation was bad; no, she did not attempt to destroy the life or career of a trans author.

I think that's a very selective way to interpret her words and the way she used her platform, given that A) in the same breath as expressing her relief that Fall was Practicing Some Self Care by hospitalizing herself, Jemisin claimed that Fall's story was so bad it caused her readership psychological harm—the exact same argument all her detractors were making in the first place—despite never having read it;

and B) she also used her platform to amplify the voices of and deflect blame from authors who definitely had a direct hand in tearing Fall down, like Neon Yang.

It's not just that her tweets sounded bad; it was that all the "solidarity" she claimed to want to express was backhanded at best and founded on an assumption that people were right to accuse her of doing wrong by her readership—something that, as far as I can tell, she's never acknowledged in any apology she's fielded since. Jemisin was far from the sole or principal author of Fall and her work's withdrawal, but at the end of the day, I think the heart of my criticism's sound: Jemisin's idea of a utopia founded on swift, fatal, but nominally compassionate informational control, taken in context with her own actions, seems dismayingly consistent with her actual ethics.

Well put!

I do disagree on the specifics (she didn't say that the story was bad, she said "sometimes art causes harm... artists should strive to do no more of this harm" which is a nuclearly bad take but not a first hand claim that the story caused harm) but that's largely beside the point.

I think if I saw Jemisin's actions as "swift, fatal, nominally compassionate informational control" I'd absolutely agree with you. But I can't read that much intentionality into her tweets.

I see a person who was woefully under- and mis-informed making the regrettable decision to tweet through it and causing harm in the process. I see a massive fuck-up, followed (a whole year later) by a reasonable admission and apology.

I guess I'm just trying to believe in restoration and rehabilitation rather than permanent block-listing?

sure. rehabilitation into what though? what, if anything, did she actually suffer as a result of this? to what status should she be restored? not to that of "known canny actor when events are still occurring" i'll wager. it's totally fair that people should be known for what they do and the knowers should be able to make decisions on whether that kind of doing seems likely to happen again.

Am I the only one who doesn't really get the point of 'why don't we just kill the kid in the omelas hole'? Like it's darkly funny, maybe kind of gratuitous in a way that doesn't do that much for me. I can get something out of it as a parody of the banality of omelas responses. Maybe it's just supposed to be kind of interesting? Is this what you meant by playing with an abstraction of omelas rather than omelas as presented by le guin?

it is what i meant, and yeah, "parody of the banality of omelas responses" is kind of apt. i also didn't like it much until i hit the final paragraph:

Thank God we aren’t dealing with that horrid wound in society. Thank God there is somewhere that shows us how fucking bad things could get. What a pit in the ground. What a fucked up little trolley problem. What a lesson for us. Thank God we don’t live there. Thank God we know it exists.

which turned me around on the story as doing something interesting. as i've said elsewhere in these comments though, while i think it works i don't find it to be like, super profound or anything. it's just that it's leading the pack in terms of not interpreting omelas too literally