PhormTheGenie

Vixen. Genie. Vixdjinn!

Hi! I'm Phorm, and I'm a Vixdjinn!

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I'm a genie girl, who really likes being a genie, and really likes everything about genies (really)! I'm a bit confused, lost, and trying to find my way, but I always enjoy interacting with folks here. (Trans🏳️‍⚧️, occasionally NSFW, Be 18+ or please be gone.)

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I always seem to struggle with reaction times, and the more I look into character guides and breakdowns, the more I see frame data being touted front and center.

Are people legitimately counting frames while playing? Are people actually able to see the individual frames??

The idea that someone can see an opposing move, recognize what it is, recall the frame data for that move, recall the frame data for their own moveset, select an appropriate counter, and then deploy it - all while keeping track of frames elapsed - seems superhuman to me. Like, all that has to happen in the span of a few fractions of a second. All I can do in that space is think "OH NO!"

But every guide I pull up seems to be very much about frame data, even for basic ones.

I always have a hard time knowing if my lack of reaction time and lack of dexterity preclude participation in this genre.


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in reply to @PhormTheGenie's post:

Yeeeah... when people claim to be able to see and react to single frames, the terrifying possibilities are either that A.) they're criminally deranged and might go for my throat if I let them take their hands off a controller, or B.) they can and do see those things within a reaction window, and doing battle with them is therefore pointless.

not a super expert here but i think one key advantage of knowing some basic frame data for your character is you better understand the properties of key moves, which informs you of their general safety or lack thereof.

like if you know that your big standing strong punch is -9 on block and -4 on hit (trash!), you're going to be a lot more careful about when you deploy it even if it has some other good properties. but if you have an incredible crouching move that's +2 on hit and 0 on block, you're going to find every opportunity you can to throw that into your mix.

so that's one more basic aspect at least.

Okay, this makes a lot of sense. Basically, using these as tools to quantify each tool in the toolbox more specifically than "fast" or "slow", and find the gradients between them. Then to use that data to know your safest options.

Rather than it being a constant realtime counting and comparison thing.

Much appreciated ❤️

i'd say it's pretty rare to know the frame data for EVERY move but you get a lot of generalizations like "okay, that was a heavy attack, so i at LEAST have enough time after i block it to press a light attack of my own." "This move has a lot of windup, so if I press my fastest normal I can interrupt it."

and oftentimes that is not coming from studying frame data, but just from trial and error while playing matches. you block something, try one of your moves while the opponent is recovering, then take note of if it worked or not.

GENERALLY speaking, frame data in fighting games tends to work such that if a move has fast startup, it's unsafe on block, and vice versa.

i think it's good to know which of your moves are safe and unsafe on block so that you can plan accordingly, but you don't need to know the exact data. Usually people think about things in terms of "unsafe", "even", or "safe" but not much further than that unless you're getting really competitive and trying to win majors.

of course there are some players who like to memorize as much information about every character as they can, but it's definitely not the norm or required

this response is great, i just want to also add real quick that the times that knowing frame data is useful are usually more out-of-game planning than in-game decision making.

if you want to know things like, why does this move always lose to my opponent's other move, is it slower or is there another reason? is it possible for this move to link to this other move and i'm too slow, or is it mathematically impossible? is it possible to try to react to this problem, or do i just need to not be in that situation in the first place?

those types of questions you'll want frame data for, although the odds are that if you're playing a decently popular game/character, someone has already answered them for you and you don't even need to worry about it unless you want to!

Okay, so by using that data outside of actual matches, you can get a more clear picture of how to think of your tools - and use those generalities in the event. So, knowing this is safe, or that comes out slow - rather than it being instantaneous mental math.

That makes a lot of sense. Thank you!

I'm not particularly dextrous or quick on my feet (fingers?) myself, but imo there's still plenty of joy to be had in fighting games. Particularly if you have friends or a community to play with. It's always an option to be like "I'm just here for the vibes"

frame data is just the ultimate reference point of what is actually going on. it's the physics of the game engine. you can study physics offline to improve your techniques, but you don't need to know the physics of subatomic particles to kick someone's ass, you just need to know how to kick their ass.

all other things being equal, if you have bad reflexes or visual acuity then you are at a disadvantage. but rarely are all other things equal: you could have better fundamentals, you could practice combos or whatever more, you could spend your resources more efficiently, you could know the matchups better, you could read your opponent's intentions better.

when chased by a bear (playing a fighting game), you don't have to outrun the bear (play perfectly), you just have to outrun the other guy (beat your opponent)

Your second point resonates with me a lot. My general experience with fighting games tends to be that I get my ass beat inside out without any chance of participating, and no one has a good time - I'm not learning or improving (because all I get out of it is "You suck") and my opponent isn't enjoying it (because it's a squash). Learning to build up some other strengths that aren't twitch-relfex or reaction based could provided some inroads.

My brain is not fast enough to perceive a single frame. Just not something that, after (counts it up) OVER 28 years of playing fighting games I've ever been able to do. I'm so bad at it that I'm not even sure it's a thing that's possible. Is this all just a mass delusion of the FGC that people are perceptive enough and can react quickly enough to follow stuff like that? No clue.

When I was younger, in my mid teens up through my late twenties, I would play fighting games allll the time with friends locally. I started out as just a button masher in each game and slowly learned which character(s) I liked best and how to pull off more and more of their moves and what their basic moves were like etc. I still never got to be any "good" at fighting games during that time, but because the friends I was playing with were of similar skill levels, we had a lot of really fun and cool matches. Because that's the thing about fighting games; no matter your skill level, and yes especially if you're playing against others with similar levels of skill, you can recognize when you've done something that feels comparatively skillful and enjoy that feeling .

Sadly I don't have anyone local to play fighting games with anymore... and playing online isn't an option because I can only use wifi for it and our wifi SUCKS. I still play single player stuff though, and a few years ago I actually started learning how to do some combos for the first time in my history in Skullgirls. Fighting games are just a lot of fun in my opinion if you treat them like a casual good time. I'm not super competitive so this has never been a problem for me. ...I mean, bit off topic but, my favorite deck in MTG of all time was one that made my opponent's deck(s) play better so I could easily steal cards from them to use as my own and it very rarely WON but was always super FUN) I love going into training modes and just using them as a sandbox to learn new things. It's a nice relaxing time and it actually does a pretty good job of getting my mind off of other things.

So no, if you DO have a lack of reaction and/or dexterity, it doesn't preclude participation in the genre in any way. IF you want to play casually or ESPECIALLY if you want to play competitively however, and you find yourself always struggling against opponents you're usually matched up against, it might be advisable to go looking for beginner communities or "learning" communities within the FGC so you can play with folks that are at a lower skill level and hopefully be able to not only have a lot of fun, but also get better over time, especially with your instincts (My instincts have, I think, been the only thing I've reliably improved upon during all these years of playing lol).

So yeah, I hope you can have a lot of fun with it, that is the whole point after all, just having fun ;) Anyway, have a good one pal, <3

I've been playing fighting games since like... 1992, myself. And it's always been mostly a casual fun thing to do with friends. It never got super competitive, nor did it get really professional. But this was like... A bunch of highschool nerds playing the Dreamcast at 2 AM

I kinda miss that vibe, when it was mostly people just having fun at roughly the same skill level. These days I lack anything resembling a friend group to play with. Local or otherwise. And most groups I might look to join, it always feels like "How good does one have to be to play here?"

I even get too worked up to play online lobbies. I'll just get smashed into paste.

But you make a good point about it being an evolution of skills over time. And you can't do that unless you get out there and spend the time to get the feel of it.

Thank you. You have a good one, too! ❤️

Alot of folks have given good responses to this so ill just add a nice metaphor that relates to your science expertise.
frame data is the specific measurement for how fast or slow a move feels.
Like you would feel like maine during winter is cold, and 5 celsius would be the specific temperature.

During matches most people feel it out but frame data gives us exact measurements of time.

Ive been playing fighting games for half of my life and ive only looked up specific frame data once and it didnt even really help me out

Goodness me. I'm lucky if I can get under 300ms. 😅

So a 200ms reaction time vs. 60 fps gives you a window of about 12 frames that you can respond, You are certainly testing above the average, so there's still hope for you. 💙