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posts from @Quixoneira tagged ##gamedev

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So for those that might not understand the comparison, J S Bach was only a amazing as he was prolific. He had an incredible understanding of the rules and limitations of music during his time and how to bend them. He didn't necessarily make anything new or push the boundaries at all though. Still by exploring his chosen medium to the maximum it allowed future composers to experiment in ways that his contemporaries wouldn't be able to imagine even if they were experimental for their time.

Metroidvanias are extremely popular right now and there are some really interesting experiments happening in the space right now, but I feel like many of them are all trying to have their niche and a twist without really considering or exploring the fundamentals of the genre. Like so many of them have very linear corridors that loop to create shortcuts without giving you exploration, or they might ping-pong you back and forth between locked areas. Many take heavy inspiration from more maso-core platformers like IWTBTG or Super Meat Boy without considering how tedious that can make the getting around.

I know folks really like Hollow Knight and it has spawned many similar games, but while it does get very close, I think it still falls short of the sort of thing I'm imagining. Hollow Knight has some really incredible open "sequence design" where you're free to explore most of the world once you get the wall jump ability. It's not especially directed after that. The areas aren't really reducible to straight lines. It lets you get lost! It kinda expects you to. But it, like many modern metroidvanias, draws from the Dark Souls series and has that sort of loop moreso than say Super Metroid or SotN. It expects you to die, go back to a bench, and try again. This is fine, it's not a knock against the game broadly, but prevents it in my mind from being an example of the "J S Bach" of the genre.

The two closest games I can think of that almost fit this description are AM2R and Axiom Verge 2. The former being a fan remake of Metroid 2 is a bit rocky. Original Metroid 2 is very linear (but has incredible vibes) that means AM2R has to work around most of the time. It's a much better playing game and really does a lot with what it's based from. I would highly recommend it to anyone who is interested in the genre. Especially over the official remake, which is just mediocre. Axiom Verge 2, on the other hand, is a more focused sequel to a game that was trying to do a bit too much all at once. It refines a lot of stuff, while sticking true to a lot of genre conventions (even if it has it's own twists on them). I should really replay it at some point.

I don't really have an ending to this. I don't really want to go into the specifics of what I would think a J S Bach of Metroidvanias would even look like. It's mostly musings. I don't think I'll ever make a game that could be considered the J S Bach of anything, but it is an aspiration if not a concrete goal. Now, it probably should be pointing out that Bach did die in relative obscurity (though still quite well off) and wasn't really widely known as he is now until well after his death, so maybe this game already exists and I just have yet to find it.



MxAshlynn
@MxAshlynn

So I don't think of Yurivania as a metroidvania so much as a narrative platformer that takes inspo from Castlevania.

But! I do really like metroidvanias and have been thinking about making something along those lines in the future.

I'd love to hear your thoughts on what makes a good metroidvania and/or what you like or dislike about them!


Quixoneira
@Quixoneira

So let's see if this reply isn't too long. (though admittedly, I already switched it from a comment to a share because it was getting too long.)

  • Metroidvanias are part a third axis of the "Games with Stages <-> Games with Open Worlds" spectrum. I like to call this spoke "interconnected worlds" or "contiguous worlds". (this should be it's own post really). They're not really in the middle of the other two and you can have elements blended from each in a game. The reason for this distinction is partly to end the debate of "What is a Metroidvania if stuff like Zelda and Resident Evil have a lot of similar ideas?" (The quick answer is "A Metroidvania is a platfromer (usually 2D) with an interconnected world and a focus on exploration and traversal over precision platforming or combat.")1

  • Good Metroidvanias excel at both making the player feel lost and providing direction. "Surely there's a bombable wall around here some place?" Bad, mediocre, and lackluster ones often have a thing I like to call "Back-to-Backtracking". That's when a game will have get blocked off, then go to some other place with the item you need only to have another blocked off area which will be opened up once you get the thing that's behind the first blocked area. (A game I remember being really bad about this was Monster Tale on the DS.) In "better" games, they allow the player to get a bit lost or hit deadends. The bit after the opening in Super Metroid is a good example of this. It's a linear path to get the morph ball, but if you go right before you go left to it, then you'll be met by blocked paths that require the morph ball (and coined the famous post "why can't Metroid crawl?"). But it also shows you paths where you will use the morph ball on your way to getting it. AND while there are additional items that you can't get initially, none of them are hard progress requiring the next item in the sequence, the bombs.

  • Speaking of "The Sequence": This is a really interesting aspect of the genre. It's frequently part of any game with an interconnected world, but to focus specifically about it in regards to Metroidvanias. "the Sequence" is essentially the order the developers expect you to complete the game in. I do have to emphasize expect here. Historically these games have had very tight, almost rigid, sequences. You're often blocked off from going to certain areas until you acquire a certain item or defeat a certain boss. This can be limiting and even railroading. The strength of having an interconnected world is there can be a number of ways for a player to do something. Hollow Knight is a recent example of a metroidvania with an wide sequence. You can explore many of the areas of that game in whatever order you want and completely miss certain upgrades (for example, the last ability I found was Swim, well after it would have been useful). Now as to whether a tight or wide sequence is good or bad, I think it depends on the game and what it's trying to do. From a design point I think it's more important to understand what the sequence you're making actually is. For example, in Super Metroid, the intended sequence takes you back up a room the fans have dubbed "the red tower" in the Brinstar to get powerbombs so that you can eventually return to the Norfair and pickup the Grapple Beam to go to the Wrecked Ship. However, since you can wall jump as a basic verb, you can get the Wave Beam, which lets you shoot through walls, early and use it to get into the area with the Grapple Beam (and a set of powerbombs) without ever leaving the Norfair. Some would call this a "sequence break" but personally I expect the designers knew about it and did it intentionally as an alternative path. The fact that is another place you can pickup powerbombs without needing them first indicates that to me.

    • On this topic it is very important to bring up randomizers. If you want to understand the potential of sequence design understanding randomizer logic is extremely helpful. That's a hold other post though. It's worth tracking down videos of randomizer races (pretty much any game to be honest) and diving into them. The commentary on the races will help you understand the specifics and hopefully show what makes them interesting.
  • Items and abilities have multiple uses. A common joke(?) is that missiles in Metroid are just keys. It's true, but missiles are also a weapon and that is pretty unique in games. Just about every item or ability you gain will have more than one use. You don't just find a key that opens one or one set of doors, you find a weapon that can also open doors. Traversal abilities don't just help you get places but can also expand your combat toolbox or be used in puzzles. This is incredibly fun to design for. Saying "Ok, this thing can't just be a weapon" allows you to design all sorts of unique use cases. All the sudden that energy beam the pierces walls can also be used to hit hidden switches. That big blast that hits every enemy on screen can also reveal what each tile actual is. As a design you get to feel clever, like your hiding secret verbs for the players to find. Of course, you can still totally have single function items as well, but I do think that is often less exciting depending on context. Sometimes it is just easier or makes more narrative sense to have a dang key though.

Gosh this post is long. whoops.


  1. It should be obvious that the genre shares and could share more similarities with both dungeon crawlers and adventure games. A good Metroidvania often makes the player ask "what if...", "can I...", etc, which the latter genres also often do. At they're core they are just labyrinth games though typically instead of a magic jewel or whatever bs adventure game item, you get a double jump or weapon that's also a key, etc. As designers we gotta understand that they are the same thing in terms of functionality even if they also have an added benefit.