RLZ

@R-L-Z

Destructo-castaway

He/It
archiverse.guide/user/Rei-Lim-Zci

What's that now ?
Dégonflé since 1987
[NSW friend code in pinned chost]

I did a bluesky, it's r-l-z and whatever the normal bluesky thing is.
Also a pillowfort.
https://www.pillowfort.social/R-L-Z

RLZ @R-L-Z10/26/2023, 2:18 PM

@ctg867

@ctg86710/26/2023, 5:02 AM

Discourse time

This week there was a debate on the Giant Bombcast about which Mario games count as a "main line" platformer and I want to put my hat in the ring for the definitive list:

Super Mario Bros. (1985)
Super Mario Bros. 2 (JP) (1986)
Super Mario Bros. 3 (1988)
Super Mario World (1990)
Super Mario 64 (1996)
Super Mario Sunshine (2002)
Super Mario Galaxy (2007)
Super Mario Galaxy 2 (2010)
Super Mario 3D Land (2011)
Super Mario 3D World (2013)
Super Mario Odyssey (2017)
Super Mario 3D World: Bowser's Fury (2021)
Super Mario Bros. Wonder (2023)

The US version of SMB2 is a reskin of another series, Yoshi's Island is a Yoshi game, the Game Boy Mario Land games are B team spin offs, the NSMB games are just rehashes/"reimaginings" of the old games, 3D Land counts cause the name is just an homage, and Bowser's Fury feels like a real ass Mario game but with a smaller scope.

#qtoid

RLZ @R-L-Z10/26/2023, 2:18 PM

I disagree on several points.

Here's my list of what I consider "mainline Mario" the arguments come after the break.

Super Mario bros. (and Super Mario bros. 2 JP as an extension)
Super Mario bros. 2 West
Super Mario bros. 3
Super Mario World
Super Mario Land
Super Mario Land 2
Super Mario 64
Super Mario Sunshine
Super Mario Galaxy 1 (2 as an extension)
New Super Mario bros. 1, Wii, 2, U
Super Mario 3D Land&World
Super Mario Odyssey
[Bowser's Fury]
Super Mario bros. Wonder

I'd absolutely count "SMB2USA" as its differenciating elements got absorbed into Mario. In a way SMB2JP with how unbalanced it is and how little it brings feels less like a mainline game to me.

I have my doubts about Land as it's a really odd one but I'd count it and I see absolutely no good reason to exclude Land 2 which is as "mainline Mario" to me as it gets. I see some bias against handheld titles from you here, which isn't valid when it comes to Nintendo games imo.

Now where I agree is regarding World 2 and Land 3, these being different enough to have birthed spin-off series. Where I think Doki-Doki was "absorbed into Mario" these in my opinion rather detached quickly in spite of what they were first labelled as.

The 3D titles all count though I'll come back to 3DL/W.

I think it makes little sense to exclude the NSMB games. You can see them as a separate branch but they are still a very core Mario experience. They were what was the closest to "classic Mario" for decades and while they were overly safe and not very innovative, they still have a gameplay/control style that is unique to them (even though it's extremely safe and a refined version of the first 4 games) and defined the look and feel of many Mario elements throughout their very iterative run.

And I consider that NSMB is also the basis for both Super Mario 3D Land and World. Same esthetics, same sticking to tradition.
If I were to exclude NSMB I would also exclude 3D L&W.

Now regarding Bowser's Fury, I won't label it as a simple extension because the free camera, movement and overall gameplay totally differenciate it from 3DW/L. On the other hand it simply isn't on the scale of a complete game. I'm leaning more towards excluding it as an odd experiment but ... I guess I like it too much.

#qtoid #Meaningless nerding #"Discourse"

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in reply to @ctg867's post:

Fuzunga @Fuzunga10/26/2023, 5:26 AM

I think you kind of have to count Mario Bros 2 US considering how many series staples came from that game like Bob-Ombs, Pokeys, Shy Guys, Ninjis, Snifits, Birdo, and each character having a unique trait like Luigi's floaty jump and Peach's hover.

Justin Stewart @Seymour-Demonica10/26/2023, 5:50 AM

The Lost Levels got shafted, but at least it introduced us to Doki Doki Panic. In many ways, I prefer "SMB2" over World.

Also, "eh SML was a spin-off but 3D Land/World are legit" doesn't feel right to me. They're practically their own style of Mario at this point, but that style wouldn't have been cemented without 3D World. Without 3D World, it would have just felt like a simple spin-off. As far as I'm concerned, SML 1 and 2 are just as mainline.

Even if I can beat SML in 10 minutes as an adult, lol.

Once Wario comes into the picture and becomes the mascot, then I'd say that's fair game.

Goemar @Goemar10/26/2023, 6:55 AM

The first Yoshi's Island counts due to it being Super Mario World 2: Yoshi's Island.

3D Land doesn't count if you're excluding SML 1-3 (I'm guessing because they're handheld only?*) the same rule applies to 3D Land.

But the super correct answer is:

Super Mario Bros.
Super Mario Bros. 2 (both versions)
Super Mario Bros. 3
Super Mario World (due to it being known as SMB 4 in Japan).

Everything else is a spin-off.

*your B-Team logic doesn't check out and you it...

@ctg86710/26/2023, 1:38 PM

In Japan where it first launched it's just "Super Mario: Yoshi's Island" -- no World or 2. The GBA re-release drops the "World" moniker too. Most importantly you (almost) only play as Yoshi. I've always considered it the start of the Yoshi platformer series just as Mario Land 3 is the start of the Wario platformers.

3D Land's only real connection to the Game Boy games is the word "Land" as an homage to the fact that it's portable. 3D World is its direct sequel, and it's mainline, so 3D Land is mainline by extension for me.

And GB Land not counting is more about Miyamoto's lack of involvement at a time when he was Nintendo's primary visionary for not just the Mario franchise but the company as a whole. It's like treating Splinter of the Mind's Eye as a key part of Star Wars canon.

But wait, if only the Bros games are mainline why not New Super or Wonder?

Goemar @Goemar10/26/2023, 8:39 PM

Time. Anything with that amount of time between them is a revival.

(The exception to this is if it draws strong story connections - which Mario has zero of).

@ctg86710/26/2023, 10:28 PM

That's a wild take but I respect the boldness lol

Goemar @Goemar10/26/2023, 10:46 PM

I mean - does anyone see Sonic 4 as the 4th Classic Sonic game? No. We just ignore it exists. And that's 4 in the name. Not "New Sonic The Hedgehog"

Sonic Mania is, pretty much, the "sequel" to Sonic & Knuckles. But it isn't because the sheer amount of time between the two titles. If it was a Saturn game released back all those years ago - it would be part of the mainline Sonic games.

NSMB was a revival. Which your original post pretty much agrees with.

The animated Star Wars Clone Wars - which was created to fill the gaps between the prequel films and thus, the prequel films being numbered main Star Wars films should, by extension - mean the animated Clone Wars is part of the main Star Wars universe.

And they aren't.

These are lawless times my friend.

@Medicamecanica10/26/2023, 8:44 AM

I'd probably count the doki doki game cause it continues to be treated as a Mario game, and much more relevant than the actual 2.

Lord Spencer @Lord-Spencer10/26/2023, 10:09 AM

I don't think you can omit the NSMB games. They may have been conceived as a throwback to the original game (hence the "new" moniker), but they are in fact all unique entries in the franchise.

Gaj @Gajknight10/26/2023, 10:35 AM

Bowser's Fury feels like an expansion as opposed to a new game.

It would be like saying Horizon Zero Dawn Complete Edition was a mainline Horizon game because it bundled the expansion in. I get that you can't buy Bowser's Fury seperately but I don't think it counts.

mingyjongo @dungus10/26/2023, 12:50 PM

I count SMB2 US and I don't count Lost Levels, in my most pure act of western chauvinism. Fuzunga's reasoning is correct. Also Yoshi's Island counts as mainline as well as Super Mario Land 1 & 2, and Wario Land 1.

in reply to @R-L-Z's post:

mingyjongo @dungus10/26/2023, 2:27 PM

I still say Yoshi's Island and Wario Land count. Their sequels can be considered spin off franchises but the originals have a foothold in the mainline series progression. (why do I care about this so much, need 2 touch grass)

RLZ @R-L-Z10/26/2023, 2:56 PM

Once I thought about how Mario dumped Pauline, the busty latina "queen" of Brooklyn for pasty blonde royalty from other worlds and I started making parallels to Bel-Ami (which is a book I deeply hate).
I think that was my most "fuck I need to go out or I will OD on creepy nerdyness" moment. I'd probably die of shame if anyone knew.

@ctg86710/26/2023, 3:36 PM

mingyjongo @dungus10/26/2023, 3:46 PM

Hey it's right there in the names! Super Mario World 2, Super Mario Land 3. You can't write off Land - that's like saying Link's Awakening doesn't count as mainline Zelda. ORDER!!!

@ctg86710/26/2023, 6:53 PM

Link's Awakening.

Link being the protagonist of every mainline Zelda game.

Correct.

😉

mingyjongo @dungus10/26/2023, 9:43 PM

Ah yes, the protagonist rule. How silly of me to forget. Wait a minute...

It's not mainline Castlevania if you don't play as Simon Belmont?
It's not mainline RE if you don't play as Chris Redfield??
It's not mainline MGS if you don't play as Solid Snake???

NONSENSE.
I DEMAND ORDER IN THIS THREAD!!!
alt text

@ctg86710/26/2023, 10:27 PM

Almost as if certain franchises establish that the protagonist is static and largely maintain that throughout its lifespan while others deliberately do not 👀

mingyjongo @dungus10/26/2023, 11:27 PM

They established it when they did exactly that!

alt text

@ctg86710/27/2023, 1:23 AM

In Mario they were the exception that proved the rule. In RE and Castlevania the rule was that the protag changes lol

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