SJHDoesGames

Try To Make Your Skill Ultimate!

Game designer, writer, casual artist, and Twitch streamer. Fighting games are fun but also kind of painful lol. Big fan of Kamen Rider, anime, and video games in general, but especially JRPGs and fighting games.

Other pages:
FF14 stuff (like questions of the day, asking about FF14 stuff, etc): @FromTheLadiesOfLight


Cacklemancy
@Cacklemancy

Had a good discussion with @sylvie about the purpose and function of Difficulty in games and when I'm not so husked and barely conscious I might write some of those thoughts down here.


Cacklemancy
@Cacklemancy

Alright so, when I started talking with @sylvie about how difficulty can make you engage more deeply with a game and how it encourages you to solve problems in the game's system, my thoughts on how I gauge Difficulty really started to click into place in a more conscious way for me.

In platformers like Celeste or Sylvie Lime (Although many Sylvie games have this quality and you should play them to see!) the difficulty comes in mechanically and through level design. You have to figure out really precise or creative or technically difficult ways to complete a section, you die often, get to retry rapidly, and this entire process is both fun and it pushes a player to get better at the movement techs, think in new ways about movement in this space, and it feels extremely rewarding when they clear a stage.

I mostly write visual novels and text-heavy exploration games. Most people don't think of VNs as having any Difficulty to them because the mechanics are usually really simple, but if And Then, There Were None can have a difficulty level as a novel then games can too. If you've ever felt stressed out by a dialogue choice or agonized over doing a fight because of the character implications or pored over a wiki to try and understand soulsborne lore, that's a sign of difficulty too, isn't it? The narrative's hooked you just like those platformer mechanics and because of that, you think about it more deeply and feel driven to engage with it more seriously. I'd even argue that just like games teach you how to play them mechanically, they teach you how to read them too.

It's just not a thing I ever really thought about in these terms because these aren't the terms or frames we usually use to talk about narrative design.

I've got more thoughts on this, but I also really want to know:
How do you think of Difficulty in your games? How do you decide where that difficulty comes up, why you've added it, and what effect it has on the player?


SJHDoesGames
@SJHDoesGames

so, in a general sense i usually don't think "oh i'm going to make This Thing Difficult" right from jump street. sometimes there are exceptions to this (parrying and shielding mechanics I generally give a high reward of some kind and so they're usually tricky but not impossible to do), but a rough breakdown of how i handle difficulty in my game design practice is this:

  • I sort of just start by taking the mechanical premise in question and implementing it however I can get it implemented.
  • Then, based on the strength of the mechanic and how I want players to think about using it, that's when i decide how challenging said premise is to interact with and why i want it that way. things that are Hard To Do in my games are usually things that will benefit you greatly if you can pull them off -- hard calls on enemy behavior, doing something that will greatly disadvantage your opponent, or otherwise Risky Business. if you decide to do the risky, high-payoff thing, the game will basically say "ok, but you're going to work for it somehow".
  • i usually also dovetail the second step with a lot of watching people while playtesting and just noting what they do and don't do.
  • i don't do explicit difficulty levels/settings in my game design practice because i've found that letting people dictate the how of their experience does better to modulate difficulty than standard easy/normal/hard/very hard type stuff. instead i roll it under gameplay options (and to a similar degree, accessibility options) so that players can more granularly work with the things they do/don't like and let that shape the difficulty of interacting with the game. i always have cam shake options, text blip options, and after final spike I've implemented press/hold toggles for character abilities, etc.

this process is usually really exploratory and tends to meander a lot, but i find that it's sort of the most natural way to really feel things out in my designs.

examples are below the cut because i talk exhaustively about this for two of my games, one which is finished and the other which i'm currently working on.


final spike landed where it did on this front because of this kind of push-and-pull process. in early versions of the game the ball would come in from the side after each point:

I initially built up a number of visual cues to let the player know when the ball was going to come in and at which approximate point it was going to land. i'd already deliberately removed the standard limitation on how many times you're allowed to touch the ball from regular volleyball because it's a 1-on-1 game and you don't have a partner to pass the ball to.

but the thing i observed is that people had a hard enough time just getting used to maneuvering the ball normally, which I did intend to be at least a little tricky, and i eventually figured out that I wanted the "hard part" of the game to be going for big, risky plays like hyper jumping, sliding into the ball, spiking it, etc., because those mechanics can have a drastic effect on game state. by contrast, getting to set up your next play when a point resets everything shouldn't be nearly as troublesome to figure out. so, in the final game, when a point is scored, the ball appears on the other player's side after 3 seconds and just hovers in place without falling. the match timer doesn't start running again until the player interacts with it.

in a different vein, viral core busters used to have a data integrity meter. the idea behind it was to motivate players to move quickly from checkpoint to checkpoint, and then to later add on the pressure of accomplishing certain tasks while on that deadline in order to get powerups.

it got removed early on because i found that it was too much of an extra layer on top of the planned powerup system; now you're having to decide what tasks you can do most efficiently and trying not to get cheated out of your powerup by running out of time and losing the powerup you just earned, and x y z. while i think that games that force you to engage with like, Really Frictionful Stuff right out the gate can be interesting sometimes, it was holding VCB back because it didn't give people time to adjust to the characters, and didn't give them time to actually figure out which type of tasks they'd want to even do. even if I'd had a proper "training mode" level I think it would've had the same effect. it's likely that if i were to do the data integrity meter now it'd be a toggleable option in the menu or otherwise part of the powerup system as an optional challenge that would make powerups stronger, just so that players have to opt in to that level of difficulty as opposed to being co-opted in.

i guess the way to say it, functionally, is that i like the "hard parts" of my games to be the parts where you want to do something not just normally cool but cool AND extremely beneficial to you in ways that have an outsize effect on how you want the game to go.


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in reply to @Cacklemancy's post:

completely agree!! usually, I make a distinction between "mechanical difficulty" (e.g. the usual kind of difficulty people talk about) and "informational difficulty" (e.g. not knowing where to go, what to do, etc). although people usually talk like only the first kind exists, I'd say the second one is much more varied and interesting, like you pointed out. not trying to toot my own horn but perhaps you will find this interesting: https://cohost.org/vinizinho/post/839116-mystery-oriented-gam

I have been struggling with this, for me it is very obvious that VN's are difficult and painful.
i almost want to not associate with them because they are so, ugh, but of course i recoil saying that because, technically, i mean the world would be less interesting.

so, sorry for dumping this stay with me i found something- it is the contrast between that experience and my experience with traditionally difficult games. holding dear being all like of course i can beat the game !, and it can continue existing in your head because [of feeding the excitement by learning so much while trying].. (or see Sylvie's level "bird emergency!")..

about anything technically being interesting, there is a difficulty because [truly new experiences have less to make associations and see implicitly and get excited].

well in VNs or also map games in my head it has continued being idealistic to actually write it all out and play around.
now i can make a case about in VN's there maybe is no implemented thing to accomplish and you just keep reading distractedly, and suffering in the case of difficulty. and yet counter examples like Magic Tower where you do need to draw a map or somesuch type difficulty to keep climbing and see things i honestly think will be beautiful, but okay even then i still havent.

well also, there is the world of taking apart pieces from games for relevance to your projects. like in my bias with a 2d platformer i feel like i want to trace out every piece i can identify 5 different ways, compared to VN or any drama i was like 'well nothing new here'- somehow just completely unimaginative for how it could be appreciable information.

we have the technicality, even then, you don't actually need to know personally what to do with it. it remains interesting even if just in cold fact.
i don't know why it would be cold. it's the same as just a new place for you? even if it so trailblazed by others to be exciting but you are still holding onto yourself somewhere else.

like there is no one interesting thing, there is no one way to play a game. you'd be more short for words trying to find something other then what is intended or established but yea. i would never give up on a problem because there is always technically a way.(technically impossible to run out) but here i apparently get really bad 'this isn't the place to find it' syndrome, probably as a result of still holding onto somewhere else as a eventual way. or it feels like somewhere else where the colour is somehow eclipsing other colour.

i want to laboriously associate the as intense paradigm i heard about Space Funeral. my understanding of its popularity is that it trailblazed having 'messy graphics' and still being wonderful. something about lowering the bar, but recently the creator tcatm said that actually fact is the graphics are all custom made, which is more difficult than the pretty standard ones.
maybe they meant messy structure and liked the graphics but should be same thing. maybe out of what that rpg maker community had set up a new structure could be harder to steal then new graphics. anyway i feel like its partially an inaccuracy that you can make a unique game and be a game dev. the what extent you only have x amount to personally express and be done as different from constantly mix matching games in general - no, they do overlap and you can be both.. but need both, is a subject that is easy to attack.

whether you follow and could play in the implications of all that i don't know. having written it all out, about what you were saying..
it should also be said the idea of playing a game past the point of interest as moving more into as 'pain' than 'difficult', which is a Sylvie idea but as a neat generalization.
so much to say from what you said but i probably have the path now.... i'm not sure difficulty as a forced tutorial is going to help, you are asking the player to disregard pain based on something new. even if one started with easy games with the idea to somehow enter in, i mean which easy games?? are we inevitably needing to ask the player to give up their love and their sense of self to play some of these games?
i mean no because they can technically do both, but??
how do you think of suffering in your games? how do you decide how long the pain should stay up, and what contrast in has with the player? either that or trust the player to be analytical. (....)

i always group it into three kinds: comprehension difficulty (understanding how things work, like learning boss attack-tells or deducing specific combat rules), strategic difficulty (piecing together all the individual things you know into a greater whole that'll work), and execution difficulty (how hard is it to do the inputs to do the thing once you know it). It's much more useful to categorize things like that, and you can graph games on a triangle with it! (Actually, the VN stuff you talked about is difficulty but it doesn't quite fall into any of those, maybe this needs to be expanded...)

in my last game Copy Kitty, it's moderately difficult in all 3 categories, about evenly-distributed, so you're given many different pathways to improvement. Certain levels and bosses were often deliberately tuned to requiring a specific one of those 3 categories though, to make sure you can't completely neglect one and run into problems combining it all later.

but, nowadays... i'm pretty tired of hard games after playing them my whole life! So for my current thing i'm seeing how good i can do making a game that still feels challenging and fun to execute but easy enough a little kid could do it after a few tries. Turns out, making exciting easy gameplay is actually really hard to do, but i think i'm doing alright! 😅