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camfusedly
@camfusedly
Sorry! This post has been deleted by its original author.

yrgirlkv
@yrgirlkv

so first of all: op's post has some really interesting history, and i think it's genuinely a thoughtful piece of writing. it does, however, rely on a set of ideas which've been kind of boiling underneath USA-leftist culture over the past decade, and which i think are worth addressing.


first: cultural christianity is, to some degree, a real phenomenon, but it isn't that different from other normative cultures' influence over their atheistic members. i grew up around a huge number of indian-american atheist hindus whose implicit homophobia was basically identical to the stuff that "post-christian" atheists are described as holding in this post. this doesn't make them secretly not that different from religious people! they were awful shitheads, sure, but they were not "post-christian" awful shitheads; they were hindu atheists for whom homophobia was a fun masculine bonding exercise, so they indulged it because that sort of thing is easy. this has nothing to do with "ideological closeness to christianity," and frankly i don't think most of the hindus i grew up around knew much more about the bible than i did. (hell, i had to talk a friend out of hindu-motivated religious homophobia once, and while that was a fairly trivial process i think it's proof that the specifics of christian culture are less influential towards people's biases than we might like to believe.)

it is true that america is an ostensibly-secular country which in practice prioritizes the religious freedom and cultural practices of christians over the religion freedom and cultural practices of other religious people. this is the reason christmas is a state holiday here and hannukah or ramadan or holi aren't! but even that feels to me to be less about christianity in particular and more to do with the question of what religion happens to have the greatest influence over american culture. it is worth interrogating for the sake of living up to one's commitment to living in a religiously and culturally pluralistic society, not for the sake of examining anything to do with christianity specifically.

second: the label "american atheist" actually contributes to this phenomenon, rather than fighting against it, because it suggests that to be american is to be christian, even for atheists. at this point the OP has been edited to suggest that this wasn't the intent, but it's still in the text, and it still contributes to a kind of cultural essentialism that i think is not a useful way to talk about how atheists might interact with religious groups. frankly, i think the labels are often used to discredit the atheism of people who are making an attempt to challenge religious norms and beliefs. "your criticism is not grounded in the words you support it with; instead, you're just another one of our oppressors in a different cloak" is a classic right-wing tactic across the globe. i think christianity in the west might seem unique because unlike many other religions its claims to oppression are significantly less believable, but the fact that i've seen this rhetoric both from conservative muslims and hindus speaks volumes to its appeal to the right-wing mindset regardless of the specific theology.

this is not me saying atheists can't be oppressive, even in the pursuit of their atheism; atheists are no more right to engage in persecution than any other religious group. what i am saying is atheists from other countries and religions are not uniquely separate from christian atheists. it is, in fact, more than a little insulting to have it suggested that we are. we're people too! we're adults! we are equipped with the maturity to adopt the same moral responsibility for our words and our actions that christian-background atheists have, and in fact we deserve the same as a matter of respect.


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in reply to @camfusedly's post:

Thanks for commenting! As an ex-evangelical, hard same in a lot of hard ways. I wrote this thinking of friends and other acquaintances who weren’t raised Christian or maybe even their parents weren’t raised Christian, who think Christianity doesn’t affect them at all, but I could see it because of my background. (My post wasn’t clear 😣) I wonder if you had similar experiences?

I can't remember ever being a believer, and most of my peers throughout college had either similarly grown up doubting in an American Christian environment or were practicing from an entirely different tradition (Pakistani Muslim, Russian Judaism, etc).

In my adult life, I've predominately lived with first generation Vietnamese and Chinese immigrants, and that's made me appreciate how narrow the difference between American Christians and seculars are. For example, wealth/food from an American POV is either regarded as a blessing bestowed by God to His faithful, or a product of a well-designed system of functional government and the honest work of civilized people. Not difficult to tie that to your correct belief ideas.

My Vietnamese mother in law on the other hand would say we have abundance because we fought for it and won it. There's a finite amount of stuff to be had in the world, and wolves are always at the gate, so you've got to keep your claws sharp.

my two main opinions on new atheism are:

  1. it's main failing was that it acted like bookish upper-middle class white kids were the true victims of American Christian hegemony
  2. way too many new atheists, especially ex-Protestants, retained their evangelizing ways without analyzing that too deeply, and in some ways got a certain zealousness similar to Zeal of the Convert

As an exvangelical, cosigned.

It's kinda funny, because the cultural Christianity that you point out was something that I would have seen as a deep problem when I was a Christian. I think the main problem I'd have with that sort of cultural Christianity now is that it tends to not be especially examined, which means it can get bundled up in the "Things We Do Because We Do Them" bundle that lashes out against change.

(Of course, the benefit of it not being especially examined is that when it is examined, it isn't necessarily tied on super strongly)

Thanks for your comment and your co-sign! Yeah, that’s a good point, that hopefully if people’s identity/sense of in-group isn’t tied up in Christianity, then it’s easier for them to hopefully separate what they want to keep from what is harmful.