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Elle-danger
@Elle-danger

I have a question for my fellow ttrpg runners/ maestros/ gms/dms etc.

I'm currently running two games, and in each, I have a challenging player. And they're challenging in different ways. And I'd love some advice, tips, support on how to handle these situations...


Game 1: I have majority brand new to DnD, just enjoying themselves having silly fun plus one experienced all the way back to 3rd edition player who is also a little dominating at the table. They also objected loudly and at length when I said no evil characters (it's fun for some tables I'm sure, but I've never seen inter-party fighting go well, and the 'I was evil all along and have betrayed you all' is only fun for that one player. Everyone else got betrayed). Anyway! Despite/because they are the most experienced player they are also the one that sees where the plot is wanting to go and will pull the other players in the complete opposite direction. I find them challenging because they frequently over-rule what other players want to do, and then make it difficult to progress the 'story'.
At one point, I had to stop the game and say "hey, if you want to do a free-wheeling thing where you steal a ship and just fight monsters, I am down for it. You just tell me that that is what you want to do, and what some monsters you would find cool to fight are." And I meant that quite genuinely, because at that point I could toss the module aside and just do goofy fun with them. So long as that's what they all wanted. But they wanted to stick to the story, but then the challenging player felt like they were combatative with me for the rest of the game and it was an absolute fun-sucker for me.

Game 2: This group are majority seasoned 5e players, and excellent role-players. They are in many ways the dream group. My challenging player is the one who is trying to play me, the DM, rather than engage with the story. I have caught them multiple times now manipulating other players, to get them to ask me lore questions out of game. In one out-of-game hang out, they let slip that they (challenging player) and another had a plan to trick some info out of me, and when I tell you I sighed so loudly and had to say there and then "please don't do that, it's exhausting for me". (And it's not the first time I've had to whip that phrase out).
In some ways, it's meant that I have set some firm boundaries. And I have to repeat them firmly and often.

    1. Only stuff that happens 'on screen' is canon. ie., there's no point in asking me to make GM decisions outside of game, because they won't be 'true'.
    1. I do not make GM decisions/ story decisions outside of the game. When I get asked this information (and despite these boundaries I still do), I just reply with "we'll find out if/when your character investigates/asks that in game."
    1. I will not get drawn into written RP, full stop, ever. for this campaign.
    1. And most sadly for me at least, I leave decompression time early. Normally after a session I'd hang back and chat with folks until everyone's back to an even emotional state. And now I tend to leave after about half an hour, regardless of how folks are doing. (I'll still communicate 1-2-1 with any player that seems really affected). Because on a number of occassions the challenging player has asked a lot of pointed questions and when I've rebuffed them they've said they were hoping I'd slip up and share secret info.

I want to assume that this is all in jest or playfulness, but it is genuinely exhausting and it means that I can't engage with them wholly as a friend whilst this campaign is going because they're treating me like a puzzle to crack. And it sucks.


TLDR: Please tell me about your challenging players, and how you have worked with them to bring them more in line?


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in reply to @Elle-danger's post:

game 1: i strongly suspect that the player either (a) has been badly burned in the past by "railroading" gms and is reflexively trying to preserve their agency, or (b) thinks the gm SHOULD be railroading and it's just playful teasing to strain against you with the belief that you can and will "win" and make the planned campaign happen.

game 2: i have heard that in some older schools of play, there's no in-character path to knowledge so you have to rely on player knowledge; it's possible the player just doesn't get that everything will be okay or is otherwise struggling to switch paradigms. alternatively, it could be that they believe the lore won't affect gameplay much, and is therefore a safe or consequence-free arena for playful teasing.

in both cases, the solution is the same: have a conversation where you establish explicitly why they do these behaviors, and explain that it's not fun for you and is souring the experience despite their intentions. (and if it's because of their own discomfort, like the railroading thing, offer concrete steps to address that going forward.) if they blow off your concerns, go to the next stage: "either the behavior stops or you're out of the game."

good luck!

@unboxedcereal has the right of it. What I'd emphasize doing as well when you talk to them is just like, telling them how doing this makes you feel: stressed, fun-sucked, etc. If they persist beyond that, you can only assume that they like. Don't care and you can safely give 'em the boot.

A GM is a player too. If one player was actively shitting on another's parade then you'd have something to say about that, right? They don't get to do that to you without your consent either.

I came here to say exactly what the others said, so having a chat, establishing boundaries/consequences, and doing the painful work of holding to them sounds like your best bet...

I've had three problem players in my time. One refused to ever engage with the story I was trying to build, even whennit incorporated the stuff he said he wanted for his character. It was exhausting to set stuff up for him only to have him knock it all down because it "wasn't enough." Eventually, I even had his character's god show up to explicitly tell him things and he still refused to engage/believe. I had to go on a walk after that one and the whole table basically had an intervention for him because nothing I'd done had worked. If I knew then what I know now, I'd have tried to talk to him about it more outside the game rather than handling it all before, during, or after game time (we were in college and played from 3pm until ??? On fridays, so there were a lot of breaks).

More recently, back in 2021, player crossed one of my lines during a session and I gave him his 1 warning (which stung extra bad because we'd just reviewed them in another game I ran that he was in). He also tended to brush off hurting other player characters with his AoEs as "it's just HP" despite the group being super heavy into the roleplaying side of things and then offered to let the aggrieved PC beat his character up to "make them even" after I pulled him aside about that. The last straw was when we were doing some exploration and the party wound up getting caught in an on-coming prairie fire, which I'd warned them about repeatedly and even done the whole "here's what that would look like in terms of damage and checis and since one of you rolled super high on your survival check, here's a government handout on how to deal with prairie fires" the session before. This player, as the fire got closer, wound up catastrophizing the whole thing and getting so loud and frustrated and upset that he'd interrupt the other players. I had to kick him out of the group thay that point because he wasn't learningnfrom our talks or even trying to change hos behaviors. Which was especially awkward because I'd been his person of honor in his wedding a year and a half prior...

The last one was just a meta-gaming, ubcooperative player who refused to engage with the fiction and just played d&d as a numbers game. Every time I'd talk to him about trying to engage eith the story and the stuff we'd talked about for his character, he'd seen super excited but would still never actually engage with any of it. That one was a bit easier because no one really wanted to play with him anymore and there was an unrelated tpk around then, so he just didn't get invited back to the next game.

I've kicked out 2 other players in my time, but those where for other reasons. One turned out to be a Joe Rogan/Jordan Peterson alt-righter in development and the other one... well, is a much longer story but amounts to him being unsupportive of my indentity in a way that made me unwilling to do the vulnerable work of storytelling with him beside, of course, me no longer having fun when I'd play with him.