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24 | Dagn | Engineering Student & All-Around Nerd | 🔞 Sometimes! Extra-Spicy over at @StarraSnack



shel
@shel

Something I just realized is that a common cultural mistranslation that happens in my life is I'll say someone like "it's not good to litter" or "it's nice when the street isn't covered in litter" and people will react by saying like "oh so you think people who litter are bad people who should be punished? You know there's an these systemic factors that cause litter on streets and it's mostly not about individual moral goodness and criminalizing litter only hurts poor people and funnels people into prison"

And obviously, to me, none of that is implied by what I said. Because in Judaism we have the concept of Lishma: that you should do good things for their own sake and not because of systems of punishment and reward (Pirkei Avot 1:3). I'm not saying it's good to not litter because otherwise you're evil. It's just good to hold onto your trash until you find a trash can and you should do that lishma, for it's own sake. It's good because it's good for the environment and that's enough reason.

Another part of this cultural mistranslation is that Jews only believe Jews have to follow halakhah and even then there's no real punishment for violating halakhah you just have an obligation to fix your mistakes and repair harm, again, lishma, for it's own sake. You have to do it, but not because you will go to hell (which we don't really have in Judaism) but because it's the right thing to do and through your faith you feel that obligation to do it. We made a blood covenant with a terrifyingly powerful force that included a promise to repair harm, and so we are obligated to uphold the covenant.

But this means when I say "it's not good to litter" I'm not proposing a brutal crackdown on litterbugs. I'm stating that this is a judgement I'm holding myself to and maybe those in my community or who are close to me. But I'm not enforcing this against strangers or holding other groups of people to my standards. I'm well aware that individual actions at a large scale are only affected by large scale phenomenon not individual judgement. Of course it's systemic issues.

But in Christian culture, everything is a moral judgement and all moral judgements are universal and all immoral behavior must be punished and discouraged universally. This is just so core to how Christmas grew up that all of this can be assumed whenever anyone says anything is good or bad.

I think likewise my sense of valuing things that are "nice to do" or "nice to have" but that are completely separate from what you're morally obligated to do is kinda correlate to this idea of "elevating the mitzvah" where sometimes there's things we do like using pure olive oil for a menorah not because we have to but because it just makes the mitzvah even better. Maybe christians don't have good concept? I don't actually know. But it's very familiar to me that there's things you're obligated to do and then there's things that are even better than doing what you're obligated to do, just because it elevates things not because you really have to do it. Like I use wax candles every year there's nothing wrong with that. It just makes things feel really special when you use olive oil. There's nothing severely wrong with individual level littering if you really can't find a trash can but doesn't it make life so much better when you make the effort to throw away trash properly?

Anyway that's my late night stream of consciousness about how sometimes cultures have different ramifications for evaluative statements on behaviors


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in reply to @shel's post:

Oh I chose littering as an example because it's non-controversial and didn't want to distract from the meta-point. In real life I'm often making more complicated statements like "It's good to be forgive people"

I feel like there’s an inverse I see more and more of and makes me uncomfortable, where in trying to avoid Cop Brain, people go straight to justifying literally everything to a degree that borders on “I was just following orders”. It’s unsettling in its own right when you can’t even so much as say “hey maybe don’t take the job in crypto” without someone chewing your ear off for twenty minutes about “ethical consumption” and “not everyone has choices.”

We all have some choices, I’m just saying when you have one, maybe don’t make bad ones? Why is that controversial with leftists anymore? What do we even believe when we can’t criticize? I realize the world feels like a crap sack rn but nothing gets better if we all just accept it.

As a Christian I was reading through this and nodding along — I don’t have the word lishma in my vocabulary, but I do have the perhaps-related concept of doing good things not because salvation/punishment hinges on them, but because they are good things to do, out of a joyful attitude of service — so I paused for a good long time at your statement that this was contrary to Christian culture!

I’m sure there are people who self-identify as Christians who match your description, but to me, that mindset sounds suspiciously reminiscent of a shallow and broken version of the faith that the Bible specifically warns against.

Thanks for the write-up, it was an interesting perspective to start my day with!

I was always under the impression that Christianity is all about what will get you into heaven or hell as like the central thing? That everything is about being good and miserable and hardworking in life so you can be rewarded after death?

I know there's like 250+ versions of Christianity tho and unlike Judaism they all assert to be Correct, Unlike Those Other Guys

It's such a fascinating religion to me because it's soooooo different to what I'm familiar with and yet the most popular religion in ways that baffle me. So it's interesting to hear Christian perspectives on the religion in a theological sense that are non-prescriptive

This is, fundamentally, one of several major divides in Christian theology. The concept of salvation ("getting into heaven") is central, so that raises the question of: how do you "get" salvation? Some argue that it's by "being good": that you are saved (or not) depending on your actions during your life. Were you good? Did you do all the right things and none of the wrong things? Congratulations!

Personally, I think this is a hopeless prospect. None of us can do all the right things all the time, and the more honest we are with ourselves, the more we realize how completely sinful we are. So the answer then becomes: we need our sins to be forgiven, and we gain access to that forgiveness not by "earning" it (because we can't), but through our faith. In this mindset, we "do good things" not because they're the road to salvation, but out of thankfulness, as an act of willing service. We do them because they're the right thing to do — which is where your post resonated with me — not because we "need to".

Quoting your post: "because it's the right thing to do and through your faith you feel that obligation to do it" ⬅️ this, exactly.

Most of what I've learned about Judaism is through a New Testament lens of "what Judaism was 2,000 years ago and how it contrasted with Christianity" so it's very interesting to hear a more up-to-date perspective!

There is a lot of contradictory ideas about what the christian mindset is. I think this is because christianity has changed a lot throughout history (I would assume it his also true for judaism, however I don't know enough to comment about its evolution). Since the Protestan reformation, there has been this idea that the Bible alone is the source of the religion, but this has never been true. For instance, some have argued that the framework of virtue ethic is more apt to understand the epistles of Paul (I'm not completly convinced, but it would give a very different interpretation than the standard one.) But come the 18th Century, and Kant thought his system of morality based on absolute judgement was an expression of the morality of the new testament. So the many many discussion theologian and philosophers had about chrisitanity and the political evolution of christianity have influenced how we read the Bible today.
Still, all these people read the same book, right? I think it is tempting to want to find the "original" interpretation of the Bible, to read it how a first or second century christian would have read it and to return to a pre-lapsarian version of chrisitanity. I think that is impossible. I think many people had a coherent reading of christianity throughout the centuries, but those readings were vastly different because their historical situation was vastly different. I once heard a theologian say that to live with Jesus is to betray him, that is there is no single coherent reading of the new testament that will make people act in accordance with Jesus messages, or what they claim to be Jesus message. Her argument was not "and therefor we shouldn't be christian", but rather that all these coherent reading of christianity have lead to atrocities, and that christian simply have to live with the fact that you can't ever have a perfect morality system. For his part, Kierkegaard thought that the purpose of christianity was to make people live with despair. He thought we had to live with this anxiety, and not shy away from it or invent a philosophical system that would make it go away. If we combine the two, it means christian have to live with the anxiety that they will never read the Bible in the "right" way, and that it may lead them to unpleasent conclusion. They just have to live with that. Full disclosure, I am an atheist, it's just that christianity and catholicism shaped the culture I live in, and I like thinking about it because it tells me something about how to live with my own culture. And I really like Kierkegaard.

But in Christian culture, everything is a moral judgement and all moral judgements are universal and all immoral behavior must be punished and discouraged universally.

As a survivor of an evangelical upbringing and an ex-Christian, I feel this so hard. Absolutely any variance from expected behavior was a sin, and there was moral weight to every decision.

This makes me think of how many Christians I've encountered (the ones who really, reeeeally need you to know they're Christian) regard their faith as a presidential pardon; it's all right to lie, steal, screw people over (especially non-Christians; especially the wrong kind of Christian) and much worse, b/c all you have to do is reaffirm your acceptance of Jesus Christ as your lord and savior and all that shit is expunged from your record, and you can do this over and over again; nothing is really immoral when Jesus is your attorney. It's not hard to see how people go born-again when it has a fantastic loophole like this.