Fel-Temp-Reparatio
@Fel-Temp-Reparatio

One of the most distinctive types of coins of the middle ages, at least to me, are these bent ass Byzantine trachea. Alexios I reformed the coinage in the late 11th century CE, and for some reason, the empire started making most of them in what you usually see referred to as cup shaped or scyphate. We have no fucking idea why they did this. The best guess anyone has is that this was done to make them stack better, as pre-modern coinage usually lumped up quite a bit in the image and didn't stack well, but I've heard of collectors with a bunch trying that out and finding that their stacking ability isn't much better than other contemporary coins, and these three certain don't stay still there's much movement after I stack them.

Whatever the reason, they found it important enough to change their minting method to make sure they got this shape, and they kept doing it for a long time, with even the Latin occupiers continuing it after the 4th crusade. As you can see in the last picture, they had to awkwardly rock that top die around to get the whole image on the coin and to get the shape right, and it tended to not work very well. It's hard to line things up right when it's all wobbly like that. Like that middle coin above is badly double struck on the concave side (there's supposed to be one double circle around the figures, and you can clearly see two at the top of the image), and errors like that, incomplete images, and results just looking like muddled messes are common in bronze, though less common in gold (possible due to more care, possibly due to the softness of gold making things easier). And the way coins wear meant that whatever image you managed to get on the convex side could get obliterated due to wear fast.

It's utterly baffling to me that they went to this much effort when there are so many downsides and no clear meaningful benefit. That makes them fascinating little mysteries, even if the result of them isn't pretty by normal standards.


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in reply to @Fel-Temp-Reparatio's post:

I wonder if it was to discourage counterfeit coins in some way... but it can't be anything to do with the image, given how much variety they have even in those samples. Is that a particularly hard curved shape to get it into without the Official Machine? Or maybe it was empire branding...

I'm not sure if it would be that much harder for a counterfeiter to make one of these machines. Like it's probably weirder to make those curved dies, and you might need a weird hinge on the top die to let it wiggle, but otherwise it's not like it's a huge technological leap over how coins had been made for the previous thousand years. These were still hand struck from hand carved dies. And copper coins were rarely counterfeited in any point in history that I'm aware of, as it's generally not profitable enough to be worth it.

That said, the normal way of counterfeiting a gold coin was to cover a cheap metal blank with a gold foil, then strike the coin. I do have to wonder how well that gold foil would withstand the weird rocking these needed.

if those are cast: might be easier to release from a mold that way

if those aren't cast: might simply be the stamping tech they had available, not many hammer blows but a press, at least of the ones shown they don't look that dented from hammering, tho I know handling them would wear that away too nm I misread you

the galaxy brain out on a limb read of this is that it's two wheels, meshing and unmeshing in lockstep like gear teeth, for mass producing stampings? but I figure you'd find infrastructure for that so it's almost certainly already ruled out

double-stamp would be explained away by it being offcenter or something, rolling back the wheel, recentering and continuing

So these are not cast (there are a few cast Byzantine coins, but they're actually flat), and as far as I know, there weren't any machine stamped coins until the 16th century, so these are usually at least assumed to be hand struck like most other European and Middle Eastern coins at the time. But I can't really rule out that they were doing something we haven't figured out in the manufacturing process such that this curving made sense.

the way the proposed method interlocks is what got me thinking about stamping wheels, for lack of knowing what the actual term is. rocking it doesn't make much sense, but having like 9 of these on wheels does, you'd only need the one axis (I think), but doing them as concave and convex is probably more aesthetically pleasing than potato chip coins. if they fit well enough together that is.

(note: no qualifications outside of seeing people make armor, and a lot of historic/archaic mechanical mechanisms)

Yeah, I'd have to think through whether that would end up making that shape. And on one hand, as far as I know, we don't have significant evidence for similar manufacturing technologies in the Byzantine Empire at the time, and it wasn't long after the Battle of Manzikert that they started making these, so the empire wasn't in the greatest financial shape to start investing in new machinery. That said, we have an eyewitness account of a 10th century visit to the Byzantine court who describes the throne room basically having animatronic animals and a hydraulic throne that would lift the emperor into the air when you were face down bowing in front of it, so it feels like if an emperor wanted someone to use that kind of engineering know how to make a coin making machine, they probably could have gotten one. The question is whether an emperor would have thought of that in the middle ages and why they didn't use that for manufacturing more than coins.

well, so it being curved like that comes into play here though. You don't need complex tools for it, the cupped nature of things means you have a lot of potential contact points and angles, and the natural slop in the wheel and axel allows for some slop in the heights

and waterwheel powered grain mills already have a lot of the pieces. if they ever figured out how to mass produce scale maille scales, that would maybe give them the rest.

I'm imagining what sorta looks like a turret punch but much shallower

with cups to recieve the dies on either an opposing wheel, or a powered grain mill perpendicular sort of situation, with the dished parts being carved the top surface of the horizontal wheel. This perpendicular format would even more explain the shape, since you'd need to now mesh in two axes instead of just one.

(and, speculating even more out there: it being perpendicular means one person can place blanks while the other extracts punched coins, the double punch may happen if it sticks to the die (convex) section and has to be run through again to release.)

IDK why it'd matter, but the first thing I see there is it'd take considerably less force to mint them using this rocker method than the typical flat stamping (relatively tiny area being worked at a given moment vs. having to apply that same force to the whole face of the coin at once) which'd be great for cheaply making a deep relief using hand power or possibly making way more low quality stampings way faster, but it's not a deep deformation at all and they're doing it to very soft metal. Maybe they just adhere better when used as nipple pasties

It could always just be that "The Emperor, or someone else high up enough, thought this was a Neat Idea and the people who actually knew how making the coins worked weren't allowed to say no, and by the time that person wasn't in the way any more institutional inertia had set in."

The present age surely doesn't have a monopoly on rich people being convinced that being rich means they're a genius.

I've been wondering this myself. And like the "it's to make them stack better" hypothesis could still be correct even if it doesn't work well in practice as long as no one was willing to tell the higher ups it didn't work.