Kayin
@Kayin
DieselBrain
@DieselBrain asked:

Heya! Really enjoyed reading your critique of Dread even as someone who really liked the game! Youve written about souls stuff before but i saw the swipe you took at Gael and now it has me curious about your feelings on souls style boss design. Got any favs/least favs?

So for me a great Dark Souls boss needs to be something or someone interesting, something whose existence tells a story, and who is engaging and fun to fight. For me it's rarely the hardest bosses or the ones I struggled with the most, but my favorite Dark Souls boss is Ludwig.

I got to Ludwig seriously under leveled and half his attacks would one shot me. He'd miss me off I'd go somewhere else, get a little stronger, go bad, get mad at his seemingly random first phase like "this shit is unfair!!" but also gradually just got to KNOW him. There's just that sweet thing that happens when you get to a boss just a little to early and you gotta really KNOW them. Then you beat the motherfucker and you get that just... glorious cutscene of Ludwig grabbing on to his humanity for a moment, the transformation, the... horse neigh... oh god ANOTHER form??

And of course phase 2 isn't that hard but like that moment of awe and greed and like... the sad, but almost goofy moment of humanity like gosh. The neigh feels so important. That little bit of awkwardness. Stuff in Fromsoft games are rarely allowed to be Too Cool. Ludwig has descended to beasthood. There is a degree of dignity he can't regain... but that lack of dignity, as goofy as it is, makes him ACTING like Ludwig the holy blade more powerful. He's not "healed". He's a horrible mutant creature with a melted face and goofy horse noises. But he can, for a moment, despite all the weight of what has befallen him, show some of that old spark.

Beautiful. Favorite boss. Maria and Orphan also rule. That DLC has some killer bosses.

Just real quick to run through some stuff...
Love Margit/Morgott. He's such a tragic character. He has the vision of what he thinks he should do. He thinks he's the only left who cares. He's cursed, marked and ugly, yet again, carries so much dignity despite this. I love how he's such a soft gate keeper for the early game of Elden Ring. You could get him early, but he's gonna beat your ass with a stick if you're not ready.

Hoarah Loux rules and is as "cool" as bosses are allowed to be for me. As indulgent as I'll let myself be. How he respects Morgott. How he talks with his really weird, kinda corny Conan accent. How his cool lion, not a weapon, but something that forces dignity upon him. We are civilized here. We wear clothes. We fight with weapons.

But then he kills Serosh, shreds his clothes, drops his weapons, sheds his dignity.

... but it's a false dignity. He returns to his true self, which has a dignity all it's own. Then he hits you with pro wrestling moves. What a fucking Real One.

From DS3, Lorian and Lothric stick in my head a lot because they just feel thematically neat? They have a cool gimmick? They look great, they have the whole 'powerful yet pitiful thing going'.

From DS3 I'm also a sucker for Wolnir even though he kinda sucks just what a great, shocking visual.

DS2 I have a love hate relationship with Smelter Demon. Kinda the same "Ah, my old foe" feeling I have with Ludwig but less cool. Haven't played the DLC. I didn't like DS2 too much at the time but I'll replay it at some point and re-evaluate things.

DS1... doesn't have great bosses? It's kinda a weird transition point from DeS. People will say Artorias but eh.... Gaping Dragon. Quelaag as a #2. Gaping dragon is just so shocking, so goofy, so thematically relevant and like.. a push over? But that's fine.

Demon's Souls? Tower Knight I feel like is the like paragon of that era of Boss. Visually shocking, gimmicky, and with a relevant arena. A moment more than a huge, challenging skill test. Love the bosses in this game in general though. Shout outs to **Astraea **though. The bossfight "sucks", but as a moment, visually, verbally, VIBES??? Fucking S Tier shit.

Do what you will. Take your precious demon soul

Okay so what DON'T I like?

Gael sucks. Like a weird scrawny side character turning out to be the most important dude in the lore feels corny, but IS the type of shit From can do and pull off. But he problem is he's cool. He looks like a corny ass "cool" MOBA character from like the early 2010s. He has the big swelling epic music!! Random lightning!!! Oh a repeating cross bow and magic rings and like.... Ultimately he's just another "circle to the left boss" that I almost oneshotted.

Gael sucks because he wants to be Epic and I have no time for that shit.

Also kinda hate Midir and Manus but mostly because they're HP sponges. But that's just a taste thing.

Controversial pick? I think Malenia sucks. I think she's SO COOL. I love her. But her boss fight tries so hard to be challenging but ends up just over centralizing Waterfowl Dance. Remove that one move, and now shes actually kinda an easy boss with a scary gimmick. At a certain point I was like...

I know how to fight the rest of her? So do I grind until I get lucky with Waterfowl Dances? Do I learn the real precise dodge for upclose Dance? Do I play super lame instead where I can keep distance and deal with the attack in a more consistent way?

... Or do i summon a mimic tear and stunlock her into oblivion?

I decided I had better things to do. To oblivion~ A great thing about Elden Ring is how it gives you a lot of ways to just go "nah, not feeling this one".


boobs-are-progressive-and-feminist
@boobs-are-progressive-and-feminist

Okay I know purists will insist it's something different but I want to talk about Genichiro.


Genichiro is the current leader of Ashina. When you first see him, he just looks important with his armor and his bow and his whole demeanor. He (probably) summarily kicks your ass and puts an end to the escape attempt that starts off the game.

You fight to reach the pinnacle of his castle. And as you do, you realize Ashina is weak. Its regular soldiers are thin and underfed. Their mighty gatekeeper is an old man, no longer who he once was. Its ninjas and spies just kind of idly sit on the rooftops. They're counting on a bull with flaming hay bales attached to its horns to do anything. This is no longer the mighty power that seized its own independence decades ago. The only person who seems to be worth a damn at trying to stem the bleeding is a weird guy in a mask. The first part of the game is all about fighting past everything to make it to the top of the tower of Ashina castle. This is the highest point, where Genichiro's power is centered. There he is, powerlessly begging a 12 year old to make him immortal. His only plan for if the 12 year old says no is to beg harder.

Genichiro challenges you to a fight because he wants to keep an unarmed 12 year old in his power. He still has his armor and bow but his dignified air is gone. When he's beat, he strips off his armor. He is small and lean, his skin blackened from burns. His hair is messy and unkempt. His eyes look like he's cornered and desperate.

In the same way he believes that the Ashina's traditional defenses cannot stop the country from being assimilated, he also believes that he can't win just using traditional Ashina swordsmanship. Genichiro needs heresy and mysticism. He needs immortality.

This pursuit has ruined his body and it's ruining his country. He shows you bigger tricks, but all of them have simple counters. The heretical arts aren't helping and all Genichiro feels he can do is double down on them. He's a loser.


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in reply to @Kayin's post:

Fromsoft's earnest comittment to goofiness, even their "coolest" moments is SUCH a huge aspect of why Demons Souls got me hooked way back in 2010, before i even understood the core gameplay loop enough to get very far in ANY of their games. It took the better part of a decade for me to "get" fromsoft's souls style games but i always kept TRYING because the vibe of their games truly are unmatched and unreplicated.

Its kinda why DS3 as a whole is kinda bouncing off me atm (im playing through it fully for the first time). Gael seems like an encapsulation of the whole game aesthetically. Weirdly unwilling to let itself be quite as weird and goofy as prior games even though so many moments REALLY beg for it.

Also god Ludwig is so good. I think your remark about "getting to know a boss" is a great way of putting it, and imo i think that might be the core justification for Soulslike boss difficulty. I WANT to get to know bosses, i want to learn how they move, how they "think", to be given enough time and back and forth with them that i begin to notice small details in their vocal lines or body language. I think thats why im personally disappointed when i beat a boss first try, i lose out on that experience. Goes without saying tho, not every boss needs to be this, and occassionally some boss design pushes the difficulty a bit much. A cool gimmick fight with good vibes (like Wolnir!) doesnt NEED to be something players have to beat their heada against.

Also i agree re: demons souls bosses in general. So many of them arent HARD but their vibes are impeccable (BLUEPOINT REMAKE DO NOT INTERACT). Tower knight, armor spider, astraea, penetrator, maneaters. Its always great fighting a boss in a new game and going "oh hey theres a lil demons souls in this!".

Yeah DS3 is plays nice, but it rolls off me. There are bits I like about it? Even some of the indulgent stuff like finding Anor Londo is cool, but it suffers from the fact the game feels like it's taking more than a few victory laps.

The game kinda hates itself and it works into it's themes, but it's very cake-and-eat-it-too so it feels half hearted. Or maybe it feels weird for me because I was already ready to let go, and these themes are almost an attack on those who haven't. It's just like... why are we retreading all of this? As much as I didn't enjoy DS2, none of it had to do with it being a clean break.

Playing Ds3 after playing through DS2 (and personally REALLY enjoying it) has definitely made its weakness stick out starkly. Its not a bad game but of all 4 of the true "souls" games its probably my least favorite.

Im just glad fromsoft allowed some of that silliness/whimsy to return in Elden Ring. God bless WWE champion Hoarah Loux.

Not to return to a conversation two weeks old but MAN I have been rotating the distinct Lack of Goof of DS3 and there are spots where The Goof does, somehow shine through which just makes the whole feel so much more lacking. Wolnir is an obvious bright spot (har) but honestly kicking the door open on Aldritch with Gwendolyn half in his mouth is some real freak shit that I appreciated, doubly so 'cuz it's such a dirty way to do a fan favorite character, it shows vision.
Also it's relegated to almost a bare background detail, but the Lothric angels just being these fat knights with giant dumbass smile helmets? And they beat such massive amounts of ass? And there's three golden ones guarding one of the most useless offensive miracles in the game? Beautiful, stupid, would've loved to see more of that.

100%, ds3 absolutely has its moments but they feel much less common compared to prior (and later!) titles.

Also Aldritch gives me such mixed emotions cuz on the one hand, yeah the way he's literally in the middle of eating Gwendolyn is gnarly and fucked up but i actually kinda feel like his fight feels a bit too fanservice-y in some ways? Like oooo we're in the ornstein and smough room and ooo heres gwendolyns body and oooo hes using Nito's blade! It feels too self referential and the body horror gets lost in the sauce.

I do love those fatass knights tho. A+ designs.

I enjoyed Midir once it was pointed out to me that you can just...fight fair, stay in front of the boss, and everything works smoothly from there. Putting it like that it feels more like a Sekiro boss than a DS3 boss - you're encouraged to stay close and trade attacks even if every fiber of your being says it's safer to run and pick your spots.

My favorite boss in the game is a certain DLC fight I won't spoil, but you get a titanite slab for your troubles. Peak Fromsoft humor. Peak Earnest commitment to goofiness in their "coolest" moment.

Plus if youre not UNDER the dragon constantly, then it just flat out WILL NOT use the big flame breathe AOE when jumping in the air!

A lot of fromsoft dragons actually want to be fought from the front

Gaping Dragon is one my faves in the whole series! What an indulgently weird critter

As someone who plays the games mostly to poke around the world and see all the fun nasty art I really enjoyed many of the bosses in Elden Ring. Terrific cast of really fucked up guys tm. I love Godrick and his sarcastic waltz theme, I love Rykard and his inscrutable silly dialogue. I love how the actual final boss isn't the big adulterous story man, it's a frickin gummy bear dragon with little slappy feet who gets a sad song

Lady Maria is a weird one for me because she's just been a cakewalk every time I've fought her. Like the cutscene is cool, the music is good, and the set piece is pretty, but that's really all i can give her.

in reply to @boobs-are-progressive-and-feminist's post:

I never thought of it that way, but you're totally right. With some more thinking about it, another similarity I enjoy is that Hoarah Loux and Isshin are both very complete people whose power to rule comes primarily from their strength. And you can strip them of their position and their armor and their finery and they're still very complete.

Gael might be Guts:ing a bit too hard to actually be cool, but I really liked him. I felt like he represented a subset of players, just like Soul of Cinders does. He's not going to stop until he gets that hopeful ending! He'll wait until the end of time if he has to!

I'm a known Das2 liker (Scholar version specifically) and I think the DLCs is the best part, so I would definitely recommend giving it a shot sometime. It's environments get very silly, but are fun to traverse. Also the bosses are a big step up in complexity and fun. In the regular game only Darklurker can really compete with them.

I learned after actually beating her that you can interrupt waterfowl dance with freeze grenades. I kinda just wish that she didn't have that move to begin with. I hope they don't do any more of those all-or-nothing fights in the DLC :/