TalenLee

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I'm Talen! I make videos and articles and games and graphic designs and guides and messes and encouragement. Chances are you can find anything I do on my blog. I like it when you comment on my things, so please do!


vogon
@vogon

wait, if you can stabilize someone who's decompensating by beaming them into a transporter pattern buffer and then deleting the transport, why does anyone ever die on a starfleet ship

can't they just have the computer monitor everyone's vital signs and do this automatically


mcc
@mcc

It seems to me that the entirety of Star Trek has an only-rarely-acknowledged, always-present subplot about a society which is right on the edge of Singularity and is consciously choosing not to step over it. Although they usually don't address this, when they do address it it's a huge deal— minor breaches of the unspoken Technological Lines We Don't Cross, like Soong's genetic manipulation (and everything downstream from that, like the Illyrians or [spoilers ds9] Julian Bashir) or Data's strong AI or time travel, become the basis of entire character arcs or movies. The fact that this is sometimes such a huge deal but then sometimes gets breached in tiny unacknowledged ways (like, it's very difficult to explain why the computer on the Enterprise-D isn't a strong AI, or [spoilers Picard s3] why nobody in Federation society treated transporters apparently moving to lossy compression, roughly the most horrifying hypothetical-technology decision I can imagine, as even noteworthy until it got exploited at the end of Picard, or why Discovery gets away with a tenth of what they do) feels at first like poor writing, but considering how "consistently inconsistent" it is it actually feels better to interpret this as a society which is very bad at thinking about technology.

The way Star Trek society deals with technology is contradictory, and it is contradictory in a way that mimics the way real society deals with technology— bright lines that are maintained although it would improve or even save lives if we were willing to cross them, but also people crossing bright lines freely and uncommented-on if they can find some mental trick of saying "oh but that's not really genetic modification" or whatever. Things that are technologically easy but structure-of-culture "impossible" to reify, such that constantly Geordi La Forge or your one Maker friend is just cobbling together a little one-off hack that ought to change society forever if it were productized but never gets repeated outside that one-off hack. I don't think much of the writing in Star Trek but this one element is so pervasive, and so actually human, it makes me want to give them the benefit of the doubt. Why don't people use transporters and replicators to restore the dead from the moment five seconds before they died? Well, why does the United States of America clamp down stem cell and embryonic research to a point of near-immobility, but think basically nothing of fertility clinics overproducing embryos and leaving them in freezers until they're discarded? For this to be an answer it doesn't even have to be the case that "you've already crossed the line, go harder" is the correct answer— it doesn't even have to be the case that we should be creating human embryos to experiment on. It just has to be the case that nobody wants to have a conversation about it.

Federation engineering school doesn't have to have given everyone an Ethics class where they teach that Human Lifelines Must Not Go Nonlinear and that's why we don't automatically drop people into a transporter buffer the moment before death and then transport them back out with the chest wound edited out. Nobody has to have made a specific decision that this is Not Okay (but editing a transporter pattern to take away someone's guns, that's okay). All that has to happen for this to be Real is for everyone to be afraid to think completely clearly. Everyone has to be used to certain suggestions, when you make them in an engineering context, getting abstract pushback, and everyone has to get used to self-censoring. Eventually Transporters Don't Do That because no one will allow themselves to have the idea to make transporters do that.


And this is where it gets a little weird: In Star Trek, they actually can't allow themselves to have the idea. There's a sort of very weak anthropic principle here where preventing themselves from Having The Idea, any of at least six Ideas, is the only thing that allows Star Trek to be a recognizable story at all. Consider a timeline where time travel, strong AI, "hard light" holograms, or transporters/replicators as medical technology were taken to the obvious places that TNG society or probably even TOS society could take them, and within fifty years there's just… nothing, probably, or rather nothing recognizable. Probably everyone is uploaded into servers, or society is erased by a Borg-like bad path, or even in the best case scenario we're in the Culture and the storylines aren't emotionally resonant to 21st century Paramount+ subscribers. And the people inside the Star Trek stories probably know this much. They can see what happens at step 7 so they're stopping at step 3.

Is this a metaphor? I'm not sure if this part is a metaphor. The transporter medtech thing seems to have IRL analogies but this doesn't so much.

Imagine that, say, every person on earth had end-to-end encrypted messaging (that's a good example of an IRL "but why don't we—" technology that could exist but due to various soft pushbacks continually doesn't). It wouldn't actually change very much (not even law enforcement, since the Jan 6 prosecutions have made it very publicly visible that courts don't find it hard to get hold of one end of a Signal chat). There are lots of ways in which IRL tech could progress but doesn't, but we're not actually close to singularity, IRL. Maybe the writers feel like we are? It seems unlikely to me there's actually some sort of writers-room mandate or that the writers coordinated to decide that Federation citizens will have a messy relationship with high tech in a way that mirrors Americans' messy relationship with high tech. Rather the writers are people who are living in a technological society and they could have a sense that just a bit of restraint is all that's keeping society from plunging into unrecognizability (the back half of Picard s3 was morally repulsive, writing-wise).

More-recent Star Treks, working in several time periods simultaneously, have introduced a sort of cycle where society keeps developing strong AI, and then it causes a disaster, and then society intentionally pedals back AI tech, and then a generation passes and everybody forgets the last disaster and starts bringing strong AI back¹. (Discovery, when it was introduced, seemed to have a higher level of technology than Star Trek TOS despite taking place about a decade earlier; the series eventually makes this canonical by suggesting at some point in the ten-year span the Federation intentionally reduced the amount of automation on its ships for infosec reasons.) It seems very easy to come up with real-world analogues for this process, but most of them require you to take little-c conservative positions on science (for example, you could imagine this cycle for nuclear power— but probably only if you think nuclear power is a bad idea). I have doubts the writers intentionally made this a cycle; I think that Picard just had phenomenally lazy writing, the s1 writers cribbed from Discovery (and Mass fucking Effect), and the s3 writers were (repeatedly) indifferent to whether they were repeating their own previous seasons thematically. But they did it, and it works as a plausible cycle, with big enough internal-timeline gaps between the repetitions it feels plausible as a mistake a single society could keep making. One candidate for a real-world tech this could be a metaphor for is social media: Our IRL society went long on social media in the first part of the last decade, and now is visibly pedaling back, between the social media corps tearing themselves apart and every government on earth passing hamstringing laws on online communication that probably would have been Unthinkable in 2010.

There is some sense in which social media did bring us to unrecognizability, not technological-singularity unrecognizability, but politically, in the sense that the far right was so effective at leveraging social media it almost brought (still might bring) fascism about on a scale so intense there might not be any going back. I personally think the solution on this is to fix social media to be less exploitable by bad actors, not to scale back social media as a concept, but this does fit into the Star Trek analogy, where technological advancement leads us to not just discomfort but a point-of-no-return Brink. Does it actually work to metaphorically equate fascism to technological singularity? I don't like that. It feels like the kind of thinking that gives us… well, Picard s3. Could there be some inchoate anxiety of this sort brewing in the minds of the various Star Trek writers rooms? Maybe at this point I'm finally reading in too much.

Anyway, to conclude, the reason Starfleet transporters don't prevent all death on a ship by blinking anyone who's about to die into a pattern buffer is that the transporters are manufactured by Apple, the transporters can only integrate with software that's been approved with Apple's signing keys, and for liability reasons Apple's TOS bans apps that apply the transporter for medical purposes. QED

¹ Discovery, Picard spoilers: Section 31 develops Control in Discovery, it almost eradicates all life; the Federation covers this up but puts strong limits on AI across the board; years pass, Data shows up and gets everyone used to synths; synths become common; the Mars shipyards disaster occurs; synths get banned across the board; years pass; Picard s1 happens and people get used to synths again; just a few years later in Picard s3, the moment AI is thinkable tech again, Starfleet attempts to wire its entire fleet for remote control and there is a disaster. There's a Lower Decks storyline you can fit into this timeline too and I seriously wonder if Picard ripped Lower Decks off.


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in reply to @vogon's post:

this was a voyager plot point and iirc the reasoning was you had to encode them specially in a way that made them way worse at actually teleporting, and they took up way more space.

who knows if the writers of SNW remembered more than the putting them in it to save them, though.

I thought the TNG-ish canon was that transporters are fundamentally analog, and the signal degrades if it sits in the buffer for a few minutes. They do not have a technology that can reduce the position, velocity, spin, etc of every subatomic particle in your body into a manageable stream of bits.

there's a voyager episode that's been stuck in my head for like 25 years where IIRC chakotay has to convince a guy to kill him with a phaser to get out of some goofy trap. He's like "if I'm immediately teleported to sickbay they can revive me, even if I've been braindead for up to three minutes"

child me just instantly going WAIT WHY HAS LITERALLY ANYONE EVER DIED FROM A PHASER THEN

That's definitely a like, consequence of the last run of shows being 20 years ago. From memory the enterprise in TNG can basically sustain one whole person in its memory banks (as a hologram or in the pattern buffer) and it overloads or drains too much power from the rest of the ship's systems. DS9 sustains 4 or 5 people from a pattern buffer by spreading them throughout the entire stations systems and it causes widespread damage. So in that technological era it seems like a RAM issue. @NireBryce below says it's possible on the Voyager? Which might be because of the specialist nature of that ship?

So I'm guessing SNW like, found that as a plot point without also like, going in depth in the way that was wrapped up in technological limitations of particular ships or stations?

It only puts them in stasis, essentially holding them at whatever state they were when they went in, so once they got out, they'd still die unless immediate medical care to preserve them is possible. But also as others have pointed out, at least in SNW, it's already been established last season that doing this long term wreaks hell on the systems, draining power and resources and can even still degrade is the systems fail.

This is mostly consistent with past episodes of other shows iirc. Scotty was in one for years but only because he was syphoning power from an entire Dyson sphere. Every other time it's done up, there's usually some technical reason why is not sustainable. Even in this latest instance, that did kinda prove to be the case.

In addition to everyone's correct Technical Manual points here in the comments, I'll add that if you've ever played New Super Mario Bros Wii, you know that at some point you come across a stage where the three other players bubble up and you have to complete it while trying not to burst them out of stasis. What happens when the Enterprise gets down to just an Ensign in the transporter room and everyone else in the pattern buffer, watching those transporter worms swim around for all eternity?

A lot of very good points in the replies but also: the sheer frequency of transporter failures and accidents should dissuade people, presumably if they did do this most people would just die from getting accidentally buffer overflowed into the holodeck with the safety off instead of whatever was going to kill them

in reply to @mcc's post:

Starfleet exists to give type-A personalities something to do and keep them from fucking up the utopian society of the Federation as a whole. By extension, starfleet technology is designed to give people thrilling adventures and puzzles to troubleshoot.

A single person can run the Enterprise from a PADD or by ordering the ship's computer via voice commands. Why do you need dozens or hundreds of crew? To some extent, because nobody can anticipate what kinds of weird shit the Enterprise might encounter and what specialists will be most useful, but mostly because it keeps all those people busy and engaged. Why do power conduits explode on the bridge when the shield-bubble around the ship takes a hit? It's exciting for the crew, especially bridge officers.

Once you start thinking about Star Trek technology as an insanely intricate evolution of disneyworld-esque "theming" it all clicks together.

Starfleet exists to give type-A personalities something to do and keep them from fucking up the utopian society of the Federation as a whole

This is what I actually believe is true about Starfleet

By extension, starfleet technology is designed to give people thrilling adventures and puzzles to troubleshoot.

This is what I actually believe is true about "git"

ᴀʟsᴏ ᴍᴀʏʙᴇ ʀᴜsᴛ

Geez, probably. I wonder how often previously-unknown lifeforms that get transported aboard the Enterprise then back home die 30 days later of malnutrition because the transporter erased their gut fauna

At least a few characters have explicitly voiced that they find certain boundaries distasteful as well, like cybernetically enhancing or replacing parts of themselves that are not injured. I think the text definitely evidences the fact that humans (and most humanoid species) have a preference for more natural types of existence. I think this preference does exist (consciously or not) for a lot of humans in our current era, and it's reasonable that it could very much become a cultural value for humans who have experienced both eugenic and nuclear war.

No, it makes sense. What's interesting to me is how Federation society seems to have collectively made a decision that not just certain people will not cybernetically enhance themselves but that people in general will not cybernetically enhance themselves. When we see glimpses of civilian Federation life a clear consensus seems to be developed on a boundary people keep their technological use behind, not just individually but at the society scale. But we also don't see negotiation of that collective boundary¹. That's interesting to me, that the society actually seems to be reaching this consensus without talking about it, and it's especially interesting to me when I ask the question "is that realistic?" and quickly realize it very much is.

¹ Star Trek storylines frequently revolve around "technology can do X… but this one time, it did Y", but these are almost always framed in terms of exceptional events, not society-scale controversy, even when the storyline is obviously an intentional allegory for something that was controversial in the real world at the time the episode was written.

There's an interesting aspect in here as well that effectively it leaves most federation society as a whole fairly "stagnant" outside an ever increasing galactic frontier. The nature of the franchise is that we almost never get to see that inner federation life. And we're told a lot of the best and the brightest minds either end up in Starfleet, or ending up at advanced research facilities (which often make up the focus of episodes where people DO stray past those otherwise unspoken taboos). It seems like in a lot of ways, Starfleet IS the place in this universe where you end up if you're the kind of person that might push boundaries. If you're content with the comforts of the Federation you do something else. That is almost certainly in part due to the fact that Trek is a "border of known space" genre franchise, but also it's absolutely a believable way for a society to culturally striate.

Yeah. This one's getting further and further into "it's an inherent limitation of the writers' choices" territory but it gets somewhere between interesting alarming if you try to ask why. Does the frontier draw everyone who's a boundary-pusher, leaving the planets boring and conservative? Are there like, legal restrictions, civilian replicators are hyper locked down so randos don't make superviruses? (Or does Federation hypertech simply not work on a planet because you can't power it without an antimatter reactor and it's unsafe to run one of those planetside?) This is never investigated, because of the military frame of the series, so we're left to assume it's a cultural thing (something like my first theory), which is kind of alarming because then it feeds back into the pro-frontier subtext of Trek and the myth that there's such a thing as a "virgin" frontier, a space you can just move into and colonize without taking away someone else's home in the process…

There are numerous episodes across different series which feature self-contained, portable replicator devices with an internal power supply, often given to planetary colonists or used for disaster relief efforts. They're usually about the size of a mini-fridge. I don't think "industrial replicators" are ever shown on-screen, but they are mentioned frequently and installed on planets. There are also allusions to replicators having various kinds of lockdown protocols and/or limited recipe sets available, especially in the context of replicators intended for export.

Random civilians on starfleet vessels are depicted as being able to program the replicators with new food or clothing designs, so while there may be limitations in place, they're pretty open-ended even a context where security might matter. It is my understanding that replicators don't have sufficient resolution to produce living organisms, so you definitely cannot manufacture killer bacteria and you probably couldn't assemble viruses either. In the TNG era, growing new organs from scratch is possible, but very difficult, and it requires specialized equipment; perhaps higher-end replicators could handle those jobs.

Seems difficult to imagine tho from a purely scientific perspective (even if it "feels obvious" from a fiction-writing perspective) how you could replicate food, which requires very precise molecules especially for smell and taste, but not a "living" thing. Or maybe replicator food really is just kind of approximate and that's why people still grow wine? (This is before we get into the fact that the replicator and the transporter really seem more similar to each other than the people in the fiction seem to treat them— I can come up with a plausible explanation of the difference involving the quantum no-cloning theorem, and maybe the show technical manuals have their own explanation, but given how many Star Trek monster-of-the-week episodes demonstrate a transporter can duplicate and not just transfer matter when Something Goes Wrong this remains the prime candidate to me for "this technology is being intentionally held back from obvious potential for cultural or vaguely-defined ethical reasons".)

Yeah the expansionist undertones in Trek really do come to the forefront when you really interrogate the Trek universe from most angles. (Frankly I think that's more the consequences of a bunch of American writers growing out a relatively limited scope TV show in the 60s into a broad universe than it is any especially intentional statement by the shows.) But where that kind of loops back around is that the actual Federation colonists, the people that stay on those border planets, are also weirdly lower tech whenever we've seen them depicted. Like, colonizing a planet involves a LOT of agricultural work that is not done through pure sci fi tech. And it seems to attract a kind of people who are more "down to earth", so to speak. There's definitely so much going on in the franchise about some innate human desire to live a more natural life. Which is also just a weird theme to have running through a show about humans living in the depths of space on massive computerized space ships that basically cares for all their needs. That feels like a real thing the writers are actually saying about humanity. And I wonder if some of the ideas that we shouldn't push technology in certain ways is an outgrowth of that philosophy as well?

i think most long running sci-fi & fantasy franchise writing runs into various versions of this eventually, trying to tell interesting original stories without painting yourself completely into a corner, preserving what is recognizable and beloved about a world without falling into complete stagnation, etc. technology thinking in trek has never not been an incoherent hodgepodge written by non-scientists; scientific truth in trek is like someone sculpting a moderately lifelike human out of ground beef. the technologies it's most obsessed with are either flat out impossible and never going to happen (practical FTL travel, consciousness uploading) or totally ignore their mind boggling energy costs (reconstructing a cup of tea at an atomic level) or just a Bad Idea ethically (eugenic cloning). but hey, it uses those to conjure exciting adventures and memorable baddies, and make some inspiring speeches about humanity and what we want the future to mean. surprisingly net positive, despite dragging a small black hole of baggage behind it... again like most long running mega franchises wind up.

I don't have anything useful to add, other than my favorite example of this on Voyager, from everyone's favorite episode "Threshold". We can travel Warp 10 and be anywhere we want instantly, but it causes us to start . . . hyper-evolving into salamanders? But the Doctor can reverse it?

Wait. Maybe the Federation is avoiding these things out of embarrassment.

"It's already obscene how much energy we use to make a cup of tea; if we start making people with it, I won't be able to look any pre-warp civilization members in the eye again (while covertly observing their culture)."

It is true that the reason that the events of Discovery seem so significant yet are never discussed or acknowledged in any chronologically-following series is canonically starfleet is just too fricking embarrassed that any of this happened

before i get into star trek canon, let me just say this, it feels the answer is closer to "the phone didn't have signal" than "in this culture, no-one phones when running from a serial killer"

the big reason? they do actually use the transporters to "beam up someone, without the injury". there's an in-universe concept of "biofilters" which handily don't work every so often when a pathogen escapes detection

https://memory-alpha.fandom.com/wiki/Biofilter

sure enough, star trek is rarely shown following hazmat protocols when exploring derelict star ships drifting in space for unknown reasons, but that's because the computer has scanned things, the transporter has filtered things, and 99% of the time, it works.

unless you happen to be on the enterprise-d, of course.

anyway, speaking of TNG, there was the episode where scotty sits in a transporter buffer for 75 years, https://memory-alpha.fandom.com/wiki/Relics_(episode)

but yeah the answer to "why we don't automatically drop people into a transporter buffer the moment before death and then transport them back out with the chest wound edited out." is "we do that, all the time, regularly, it just doesn't work all the time, and the enterprise-d has been rather unlucky"

There's a throwaway bit in one of the Culture novels that touches on the idea of genetic modification: most human citizens have genes that make it easier to procreate against a much wider genetic variance ("human" in the Culture means being the descendant of any of a half-dozen founding civilizations), and genes that give them full control over their endocrine system, but on top of that, the human form itself it subject to fashion. One of the characters in Excession has ancestors who looked more like shrubs than bipedal apes! At some point, though, humanoid bodies became fashionable again.