Iro
@Iro

I've been playing the Paper Mario 2 remake lately. It's still as charming and funny as ever, lovingly riffing on JRPG tropes by way of a children's cartoon. Most of the changes have been relatively minor but appreciated, like updating the localization or excising some of the more infamous tedium. The underlying mechanics are all pretty much the same.

Paper Mario's battle system (let's put aside how western JRPG devs who have only played 10 games in their lives think it's the holy grail of turn-based battle systems, that is neither here nor there) is simple but engaging. Every attack has a brief mini-game attached where you need to press buttons with the right timing or the right order or rapidly enough et cetera to do full damage. When the enemies attack, you can reduce damage by pressing a button with the right timing, or completely negate damage with a separate, much tighter input.

Squeezing out another one or two points of damage is crucial because Paper Mario combat works on small numbers. You start the game with Mario's jump and hammer doing 1 and 2 damage, respectively. By the end of the game - without tweaks from badges - they'll be up to 3 and 5. An enemy hitting you for 10 damage is a serious threat. The hidden superboss at the bottom of the 100-battle gauntlet challenge has 200 hit points.

The aforementioned badges cost Badge Points to equip and give you access to passive buffs or special attacks that cost FP (read: magic points) to use. Think like an increase to your max HP, the ability to jump on spiked enemies without taking damage, or reducing your damage while increasing your defense. Maybe you'll put on the badge that gives your hammer a defense-piercing strike, or one that lets you jump on the entire enemy line in a row.

When you level up, you can choose whether Mario gains 5 max HP, 5 max FP, or 3 Badge Points. You can also pay hidden late-game NPC Chet Rippo to re-allocate your choices, and here's where I - armed with knowledge of the original - simply cannot stop my brain from Being This Way. I beelined straight to the Danger Mario build.

If you're a serial optimizer like me, you notice pretty quickly that there's little point in choosing anything but BP on level up. There are (rare, to be fair) HP Plus and FP Plus badges that increase your max by 5, and they cost 3 BP to wear; that's equivalent exchange, baby! ...Except you can re-allocate your badges at will. If you focus exclusively on BP, you'll have more than you know what to do with; it goes up to 99 and the rarest, most exclusive badges (that you probably don't even fucking need!) take a maximum of 7 points.

An easily farmable badge is Power Rush, your standard "do extra damage while at critical health" fare (the "critical health" threshold is 5 HP, since you start the game with 10). But remember, Paper Mario runs on small numbers. An extra two damage is like ordering a regular cheeseburger and getting a double-double. When a boss has 40 HP, Mario's basic jump going from 2+2=4 damage to 4+4=8 damage is... well. If my math checks out, that guy's dying in half the time, if you're willing to ride that HP line.

Power Rush costs a mere 1 BP. You can equip as many as you have.

I have seventeen.

As long as I'm at 5 HP or below, Mario gets +34 damage to every hit. I paid Chet Rippo and traded away health for more BP. My maximum HP is at 5, so Power Rush is always active. The basic Power Bounce badge, where you can jump on an enemy as many times as you can nail the shrinking timing window, is guaranteed death in at most two turns. And if something does manage to get a shot in, I'm loaded up with other badges that increase dodge chance at critical health, halve damage at critical health, increase defense, et cetera, as well as Life Shrooms that revive you with 10 HP if you hit 0.

The battle system, simple but engaging as it is, may as well no longer exist. I have optimized the fun out of the game.

Meanwhile...

I picked up a recent Humble Bundle that included Monster Hunter World and Monster Hunter Rise. I have never played a Monster Hunter game before.

I've played Rise for two or three hours and I have no fucking clue what optimal looks like. I feel like I'm fucking up constantly. I do not yet understand which buttons do what. How much damage is good damage? What weapon am I supposed to use?? Should I actively be trying to find these mushrooms or these brightbugs or whatever??? Which Palico specialization was I meant to pick???? It takes how long to defeat one large monster????? AHHHHHHH

The optimizer's curse is destroying me and I haven't even truly started. I've talked to some friends who play Monster Hunter and they often aren't even sure how to explain things because the series relies so heavily on institutional knowledge and muscle memory at this point. What is the fundamental difference between the Switch Axe and the Charge Blade? I don't know! How could I possibly know!

I feel adrift, and I... think I'm enjoying it...? I'm not even sure. I am sure that if I can zero in on the right ratio of optimal to simple, I'm likely to gravitate towards it. The curse at work. I can talk a big game about enjoying "friction" or whatever in games but I'm probably the first one in line to smooth out my own gameplay experience.

I've been rewatching Thunderbolt Fantasy with a newcomer recently, and at some point the comically serious edgelord Screaming Phoenix Killer says, "I've begun to think that the security an opponent's death brings might be a type of cowardice." Is it perhaps also a type of cowardice to always go for the most optimal strategy that makes the game as easy as possible? Does it matter if I'm still enjoying it? What if I'm not enjoying it properly?

I think ultimately a lot of these games are power fantasies; I assume that isn't a controversial opinion. And it's also nowhere near a new observation to note that games often encourage a pursuit of power to the point where you become the "master" of a space, invulnerable to its threats, forced to seek out a new zone and new thrills.

Perhaps it is in that seeking that the actual fun exists. I'm a serial optimizer, but I think just having that optimal build is less engaging than being able to see the build on the horizon and working towards it. The anticipation of intentionally making a plan and seeing that plan come together. Searching for that last little gear that'll make the whole damn clock start ticking.

The friction I'm experiencing with Monster Hunter right now is that I just don't understand enough of the systems to be able to make a plan. I've been handed a hammer and told to go hit some dinosaurs without quite knowing why. What can I make with these pelts? What weapon do I actually want to use against this owlbear lookin' motherfucker? How many antidotes do I actually need to pack?

I can't optimize the fun out of the game, not yet. But once I learn enough, maybe I can seize the opportunity.


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in reply to @Iro's post:

I actually had no idea that the Power Rush effect was stackable until reading this. That's wild.

I've never been an optimizer. My assumption is that, for players who choose to do something like this, the joy has to come from "solving the puzzle" of breaking the game, and then hopefully that rush of fun sustains you for the rest of the playtime. If not.......then you probably have to take matters into your own hands, like "I have to use different badges for each Chapter" or other such nuzlockian house rules.

I love Paper Mario but it's funny how the level-up options basically go in order of safe-to-fun (HP, then FP, then BP.) For a seasoned player there's basically no reason to pick HP. Don't know if that's a flaw or not, but I always found it interesting. I'm also not sure if I like the fact that players who pick HP and FP are basically "punished" by not being able to equip more badges. If I made the game I'd probably make some sort of automatic way for everyone to get a little bit of BP.

I've always been extremely allergic to learning about meta strategies or optimal play. I like to figure things out my own way. But once you do figure something out (for instance, if you figured out the Power Rush strategy all on your own and were proud of it), it's a bummer that it can easily make the rest of the systems trivial.

my solution is to go for mega rush strats and not having a million power rushes, which brings the fun back by demanding perfect play. unfortunately it’s apparently not optimal but it is fun.

Sounds good!

So, the first thing to know is a thing that many vets say: in MonHun, you aren't the star of the show. The monsters are. This is why the trailers so lovingly show the hunter getting ragdolled and chewed on by a bunch of big gorgeous creatures. It can be played as a game that you can be totally badass in, and indeed, the end sets of monsters are pretty challenging. But it's also a silly multiplayer game where you can go in with your buddies and have a great time getting punted like a football.

That being said, since you do want to optimize: here, optimization is mostly execution. There is not a "best" weapon, or a specific weapon that you "should" be using - there are 14 weapons and therefore 14 different ways to play the game. Each has its sect of dedicated players who've learned how to put them to great use. Even Hunting Horn, a slow and kludgy weapon in the games before Rise, had people who made it look badass.

So, your first order of business should be to figure out which weapon (or weapons!) you like playing. One place to start is by watching some brief guides, like this 5-minute series. There's no substitute for just grabbing one and taking it for a spin, though.

Once you find one that vibes with you, go all in on learning how to play it well. Start by understanding that MonHun is a turn-based game masquerading as an action game: there are telegraphs for everything a monster does, safe windows for you to attack, safe places to be during an attack. Your weapon has attacks of varying wind-up and lag time - understand how to match those attacks to the appropriate safe windows. Understand that almost all of the damage that you take will be your fault, and think about why it happens when it does - did you get greedy? did you misread a telegraph?

Once you're comfortable doing this, you can start mastering the finer details of your weapon, like guard points, counters, and so forth. (Youtube, again, is a great resource here.)

There are, of course, "optimal" builds, armor sets, and the like, but you should focus on mastering the fundamentals first and foremost. The builds will get you nowhere if you don't have a strong grasp on the fundamentals - stories abound of people who copied an "optimal" build from online, only to go into an actual fight and immediately get wrecked. There will be time to learn about those things later. They will wait for you. (And it's impossible to build them in the earlygame anyway, so.)

This isn't all there is to know about the series, but that would be impossible to cover - I hope, instead, that this gives you a direction to strive towards!

I love Monster Hunter cuz it's an ALMOST perfect fuck around and find out game (I always get burned out by the material grind). Compare it to Dark Souls where there are some similarities between exploration, combat style, and builds.

Dark Souls always felt a bit too tedious with it's penalty structure. Did you fail? Alright here's a health penalty and you gotta retrieve your souls or lose them. With Monster Hunter the most you lose is whatever consumable you used. And most of those you can replenish while doing a different hunt.

Great post. Makes me think of the difference between myself and my min-max loving buddy and how much we just cannot understand what the other gets out of video games. I'm not an optimizer myself. I'd label myself more of a refiner. I'm not really interested in creating/following builds and strats. I'm more interested in being given a whole, complex thing and learning how to make it work. This leads to fighting games being the only game genre my friend and I have shared appreciation for, perhaps a bit ironically. There certainly is optimization in fighting games, but you're not building a kit, stacking buffs, and min-maxing stats. The optimization comes from the refinement. You're given a whole, pre-built character, and it's up to you to figure out what that character can do, when to use it, why moves are good or bad, and how best to pilot it. You practice and work and refine your control of that given character into an optimized form.

Anyway, sorry to hijack your comments here, your post just made me think about that distinction. Might be something I ponder a bit further.

ftr I have to fight the optimiser's curse constantly so I am right there with you - but if you're turbo confused by Rise, maybe go back to World first! I prefer World and think it's a bit more accessible to newcomers (it was my first MH game), not least because it has onscreen button prompts (imo basically essential to learning a game like MH)

I felt similarly with Monster Hunter Rise, which was my first. A friend told me it's more like a fighting game. It's not that hammers are the weapon you should use on this one guy. The question is what do you main, like, what feels good to play for you?

But yeah, do look up combo strings and things like that. It'll make the clunky movement feel a lot better. Optimal builds are out there, and you'll want to look things up (Critical Eye, for example, is very good, but the name is confusing).

I hope you enjoy it! I really liked it once I got to the point of understanding the combat. But yeah, don't worry about the story. There's not much of one.

I have this same brain rot because I heard all this and went oh.. maybe I do wanna play Paper Mario.

So speaking from that, Monster Hunter can weirdly GET there. I am a filthy Hammer user, which means I exist to spin around and hit motherfuckers in the face. It is the most satisfying thing in the world because you will sometimes hit a monster mid charge and they will get knocked the hell down. Figuring out my weapon and how I interacted with the game unlocked it for me. But the thing that kept me going to it was how gear works.

Because every piece of gear has a bonus on them, that gets stronger if you have more gear wise that same bonus. And as you hunt monsters and get new gear you start seeing new abilities and the synergies they create. A personal favorite of mine was from a FF crossover where you'd hunt a Behemoth and get dragoon armor. It have you all kinds of airborne bonuses but most importantly, it increased your crits across all its items. With everything it gave +20% crit rate and made crits +140% damage, which is just good with every build. But the real fun was in the much more granular builds that give me that same feeling as building mechs in Lancer.

Also the game obviously is at it's best with even one friend playing with you. By design no weapon can do everything. So with my hammer I'm shattering armour and breaking off horns. But I'm not getting any drops from severed tails and the like. But my buddy mains long sword and suddenly we are in perfect unison. Me pounding away at the front and him at the back slicing.

i think youll like monhun a lot - the cycle of “enjoy working towards an optimized build” -> “your new build unlocks access to a NEW optimized build” -> repeat is very satisfying in the way they execute it. plus there’s no “one” optimal strat for anything - if you can perfectly iframe roll things that allows for a certain set of builds, and if you want to literally never roll that allows for a different set of builds. if you play multiplayer or alone that’s different. and so on :)
i recommend approaching rerolling like in earlier games where the rates were too bad to be worth rerolling, so you build around what you did roll instead of rerolling for something specific. rerolling is where my optimizer friends fell into despair. fair warning.

One thing I like about the way MonHun "optimisation" works is that the builds that optimise purely for DPS are also the ones that require the most skill, due to how a lot of the best DPS-increasing armour skills basically require you to ride the health redline, and dodging attacks even with maximum boost to the dodge window is still a difficult thing to do (max dodge window is 0.3 seconds in Rise, and you get no damage reduction for almost getting it!)

But you can still load up an armour set with all sorts of things the community calls "comfy skills", like increased defense, immunity to status effects, much better stamina etc, to help you survive better. You might take 25 instead of 10 minutes for a hunt, but so what? Pretty much nothing in MonHun has DPS checks harsh enough to actually need an optimised build anyways (except if you are trying to solo some G-rank hub quests in the older games maybe, where monster health in multiplayer does not scale by player count).

I'm not like a hardcore optimizer but I do have a lot of tendencies towards it and sometimes I wonder if part of the reason I like randomizers and roguelikes so much is how often they shove you away from the dominant strategy and force you to try something else instead of doing things the most optimal way every time.

Also I was excited to give (unsolicited?) monster hunter advice but it looks like everyone else beat me to it lol

as a MonHun vet, can confirm with others:

  • every weapon is viable, swap around and play around with them until you have one you vibe with! it's pretty rare for one weapon to be a hard-counter to a monster.
  • think of the weapons in the context of fighting games: each one is its own character with its own game plan and how it goes about applying that. I'm a Charge Blade main, and the running joke for that weapon is "if you're good at CB, you can play Tekken"
  • as for what items/weapons to bring to hunts, it's all about your knowledge of the monster you're hunting! you don't need Deodorizers or Antidotes for every hunt, for example.
  • your first hunt or two against a new monster will sometimes be rough, but the newest games have been good about letting you both craft items mid-hunt, pulling stuff from your chest, and even completely changing your loadout.