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eniko
@eniko

It's "funny" when people try and defend Steam's cut to me, completely ignoring the fact Steam has an uncontested monopoly position in the PC gaming market. They generally claim that Steam offers some kind of services for their 30% cut though nobody ever seems to come up with what those services are beyond "discoverability" (often phrased as "access to a large audience")

Thing is for the vast majority of games they take 30% from they don't even do that at all. Unless your game is on track to gross a quarter million on Steam in the first year, the cream of the crop of indies basically, Steam does effectively nothing to surface your game. It's not like YT where there are algorithms tuned to show your video to the maximum number of people, so videos sort of get the audience their quality can maintain

On Steam you either overperform and get visibility for life or you get nothing. There's no algorithm that tries to find the setpoint for your game, just if you sell lots you'll sell more

So what's the effect of all this? Well when your game isn't even recouping its investment, 30% is a lot more "expensive" than if your game is making a profit. So with the lowest performing games (99.9% of games released) Valve charges so much on Steam that they won't even be able to pay off their creditors effectively, while also offering no services

Put another way, Steam is most expensive and offers the least (basically nothing) to the vast majority of games. Is that fair? I don't think so but I guess you can debate on that one, but I think it's definitely pretty scummy

But it gets worse somehow! Because there is a way to get a better cut on Steam: by selling a grotesque number of copies there are two lower tiers of cut they'll apply! So the problem of Steam charges the game developers most in need the most for the least help becomes even more stark

Anyway games that don't even gross a 100k USD don't fucking cost Valve any noticeable amount of money. They could just say "hey, the first 100k is on the house" and their bottom line wouldn't shift an inch. And that'd help so many first time developers survive to their second and third games, instead of going immediately bankrupt and the devs going back to day jobs at some office. And gaming would be better for it

But people are too keen to perform fellatio for Gabe and his crew so instead I'll continue getting people claiming it's fair to charge usurous rates from devs who are just trying to break even for nebulous access to some large audience even though Steam's surfacing of games to those who may want them is multiple orders of magnitude worse than something like YT which is still (rightly!) criticized all the time

"Oh well there's just too many games! They can't possibly make sure games get the exposure they deserve!"

YouTube handles a far, far greater volume of videos than Steam does and does a far better job at determining how large an audience a video can actually sustain so fuck off with that argument

And why is YT so much better than Steam anyway?

On YouTube you can make a niche video that appeals to niche audiences and assuming your video is good, YT will match it with people who will watch it. Good here means that it has a title and thumbnail that reliably gets clicks, and the video is engaging enough that people watch most of it. YT will show your video to a wider and wider audience until those metrics slip, and then it kinda settles into a stable pattern when it finds the set point. How do I know this? Talking to other niche creators and publishing my own niche videos

If you put a niche game for a niche audience on Steam and you haven't farmed mainstream appeal 5-figure wishlist numbers beforehand Steam will not do any of that. It will notice your game isn't selling copies day 1, it will drop your game on the floor, and not even the niche audience that would enjoy it will see it. Your game will make no money, but Steam will gladly take 30% of the sales you drive directly to them for the privilege of nothing

In conclusion: when you tell me, an 11 year indie veteran who's shipped 4 games on Steam one of which topped the charts for the month of its release, that Steam has to charge 30% for the supposed services it provides, all you're showing me is that you don't know what the fuck you're talking about in the slightest

For the record I don't even think reducing their cut is a particularly good solution. The solution is for them to implement discoverability that actually works (and I'll repeat, YT does this far better for far higher volume) but given that they seem utterly incapable or unwilling to do that, the next best thing is to not squeeze smaller games that they're doing nothing for out of business by lowering the cut

Right now the tactic to get discoverability from Steam is this:

  1. Farm as many wishlists as you can by release
  2. Pray to god that your game is in the top 10 of best selling games on the day of its release so you get into new and trending

Thats it, that's what "discoverability on Steam" looks like. That's what they're charging 30% for

EDIT: before you feel the need to play the clever Steam apologist in my mentions, please ask yourself why you're so emotionally invested in defending greedy middlemen over the people who actually make the fucking games


J-Linebeck
@J-Linebeck
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in reply to @eniko's post:

In a way you pay the 30% cut, plus the $100 upfront submission fee to get access to play Wheel of Fortune with Steam's existing audience.

Now, being very poor myself, even Steam's version of "doesn't sell" gives me at least the occasional extra money to use on new clothes or whatever, but usually you don't work several years on a game, just that you have new pants money once per year.

I keep floating the idea of running a crowdfunding campaign so that I can play the lottery for a year, with the argument that it's probably more likely to turn a profit than making a commercial videogame with it.

Having the first 100k of sale cut-free would be a massive cut to steam cut in the niche segmeng while being probably barely noticeable for mainstream game.

That would also give a strong incencitive to steam for pushing each game to its audience as if they fuck discoberability, they get no money

It's an idea thay's awesome to think about but would likely just cause the entire store to collapse under the weight of its horrendous asset flip problem, or make it like the nintendo e-shop where no one gives a shit about the thirty billion indies.

I 100% do not get that point. With amy half-assed recommendation algorithm, people who play asset flip would find more of them and people who ignore them would see less of them.
If people play them, it's not an issue for valve, it's a cow they will milk. If nobody play them, the reduced visibility will make them less viable and they might disappear entirely.

yeah, i mean, i dunno if the ppl who don't run steam are going to be able to come up with a perfect solution. if valve actually cared about creating a better economy for actually-indie devs, they'd be the ones in the best position to re-assess the incentives they've created for themselves via the design of their revenue model

that seems like the core problem. valve has this bizarre (derogatory) right-libertarian culture that precludes them from taking pro-social action

I've seen people often say steam's unique services includes stuff like trading cards, their "easy-to-implement" (big quotes) multiplayer integration, community forums, workshop, chat client, play together, streaming, etc. It's all BS.

If I wanna even entertain that idea: let some of those be something devs opt into and make the default cut better. If you were to tell me I could make it so people can't stream my game on steam and I get an extra 0.5% of sales? I'm taking those 10 cents per sale every time. If you're telling me I don't have to pay artist(s) hundreds of dollars (and I love giving money to artists) to make trading card art so that I can see an occasional $1 from my cut of the trading fee and I get 0.05% more per sale instead? I'm taking those extra 5 cents everytime. Etc.

That's the thing, they don't care about that. I think they want to become as bloated as possible so that 1) they can try to justify their higher markups, 2) keep people on their platform longer, which leads to 3) so that they have more opportunities for revenue.

The interesting thing about the Trading Cards is that a few years ago, Steam made it so that your game can only have trading cards, if it reaches a certain threshold of either average playtime, or number of active players (I forgot which one).

Why? Because people published games specifically with the goal for them to be cheap enough in certain markets (mostly Argentina, but also Turkey and China I think?), so that if you were to buy the game there, you could farm the trading cards and actually make a profit off of selling them in the community marketplace.

I only learned of this, because my first game just happened to have been released before Valve changed things and from 2019 until around 2022, I actually sold more copies of it than I did when I initially released it.
No one really played it and I barely got any money from the trading card cut, but from what I can tell, the main reason why this happened, were the trading cards.

Either way, Valve is really good at adding heavily gamified "features" to its storefront, that then get exploit by both regular users, as well as some developers and Valve's solution for these, without fail, is to just make things worse for small scale developers who use their platform.

YT's recommendation systems work better than Steam's partly because they try harder, but also because they have much more data to train off. People watch many more individual videos on YT than they play games on Steam - you can see the effect of this by observing how TikTok's recommendation systems are even more sensitive and responsive than YT's are, and how TikTok has even more data to learn your preferences from, due to the shorter length of videos and the way that autoplay is baked into the logic of the platform.

(the 30% cut is still blatant exploitation of a dominant market position, tho)

Steam is great at recommending me games. i bought and played Terraria for 2 hours, so Steam recommends that i might enjoy buying and playing another game like Terraria: Terraria. i played Titanfall 2 and Steam recommended that i might enjoy Titanfall 2. i installed and played Lost Ark, left a bad review because that game is shit, removed the game from my library, and Steam recommends me games that are like lost ark, a game that i definitely "enjoyed" and would want to play more of.

such great and useful recomendations!

the personalized recommendations are also great. everyone else is buying these popular new top 10 releases, therefore i might also enjoy it too. there is no where else where those popular new top 10 releases show up in the store aside from the personalized recommendations.

i told Steam i am not interested in the Call of Duty series and, bless them, it recommends me Call of Duty games. these recommendations are so tuned into my interests!

to be serious:

i fucking hate Steam as a platform as a shopper. absolutely dogshit at putting things i might actually like in front of me. the "systems" they have in place to help people make decisions are dogshit and just more of Valve's hands-off let-the-players-decide garbage.

the curator system is garbage and most "curators" are meme page. oh someone took the time to write "yah"/"nah" for a game that they never played; that is not a good curation system! "i never played this game but it sucks and you shouldnt play it either" why is this possible???? who is this for???? its dogshit. i have never seen a curator page recommendation on Steam that: 1) made me want to follow that curator; 2) resulted in my buying games at the curators recommendation. dogshit system for discoverability.

reviews? fuck reviews. "5000 people rated this review as funny!" I DO NOT GIVE A SHIT. joke reviews tell me nothing about the game to influence my decision to play it. i do not care for such milquetoast "dunks". and the "review" often isnt even funny! often the kind of banality that people would pay a fascist $8 to place at the top of the comments. at best, 99% of "funny" reviews tell me that the people who enjoy the game have shit taste and that i should avoid it. whoever decided that Steam reviews should be open mic night at the comedy club is bad at their job.

Valve does nothing of value for me as a purchaser to justify taking 30% of your money.

incentivizing joke reviews is one of the cruellest and stupidest moves i've seen any platform anywhere do. usually valve's actions and policies come across as aloof and disinterested (we're here relaxing in our money pool, we don't care that it's thunderdome out there for everyone else) but gamifying reviews and forum comments are like some slimy staff psychologist climbed out of the money pool for a sec to do something genuinely maliciously harmful that i haven't seen anywhere else. horrible fucking libertarian social experiment of a company.

The curator system has now gotten a little worse as not only can the followers be all bots, but the reviews can be written by ChatGPT to make it less apparent that the curator doesn't play any of those games and is only emailing developers for keys to sell off-site. Just good luck telling whether any of hundreds of "we'd love to review your game :)" emails are real.

I've always felt that the threshold you need to reach to get the cut changed to 25% is absolutely bananas. They should either reverse the whole system so that small games get the smaller cut (they'll never do this bc i think they worry it'll incentivize people spamming the store), or they should slash the threshold down to like a quarter of what it is. The way it currently is makes no sense at all, and there's no clear "pathway" to get there besides luck.

As Valve has an effective monopoly on desktop, not releasing on Steam isn't much of an option unless you have a sizeable existing audience (but then you are more likely to do well on Steam too) or if you are being paid to release the game on Epic / Xbox Game Pass / etc. (where you are usually paid upfront and the game doesn't have to actually sell well).

When indie games were first allowed on Steam, what you got back was much better (guaranteed frontpage placement and email about the game release being sent to 1M people), but over years all that has been slowly reduced to "maybe we'll show your game to customers more often, can't talk about specifics" while the high %cut remained.

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