Games Programmer, Anime fan, General nerd.

 

Super awkward but trying to improve~ n_n

 

(Have been advised to add: All views my own)


MOOMANiBE
@MOOMANiBE

There's a bunch of discourse on my tl about respect and curiosity towards game design and I agree generally speaking but also I think for me there's an element of optimism to statements like these in that probably 70% of the games I've ever worked on were, to quote the excellent Karla Zimonja, "drunk-walking towards completion" and sometimes you really do end up with a design cobbled together from a bunch of goals you're not sure how to execute, a bunch of decisions that might have been good ideas separately or at the time and now you're stuck with them. Treating that as always intentional and artistic is well meaning but well and truly, sometimes game development is in fact a polite disaster that somehow turns out okay (or doesn't)


MOOMANiBE
@MOOMANiBE

I realize I was complaining about the amount of notifs the first post got me but I'm beginning to feel somewhat misinterpreted and I want to be clear about my thoughts here - reposting part of this from a comment I made.

First off, I want to be clear that I don't think and never thought this take was in opposition to critical analysis. There have been a number of replies treating this more or less as an argument against good faith, but I promise you, I start the post with "I generally agree with what's been said" for a reason! The primary thought line of this post is a lot less wide than all this - I simply think it's funny how often the games I've been on have been such piles of compromises. In my time as an artist I've always felt that demystifying art was important to me - god knows people spend so much time acting like drawing requires some sort of talent you were born with, and I've always strongly opposed that sentiment, as someone who learned it later in life. From a gamedev perspective, that includes discussing the ugly, boring, etc parts of it. Imo gamedev can and maybe even must exist both as a critically analyzed artform.and as one where we acknowledge that it's full of struggle and compromise. I want players to take design thoughtfully and I also want them to understand that sometimes compromises are necessary, that sometimes something isn't perfect because people are doing their best. Games is very secretive. Honestly I don't think we often do the best job of exposing the human side of it. It's bad marketing to admit you aren't seeing through your pristine vision, after all.

This is all to say that discussing the ugly and messy sides of gamedev is a topic of interest for me. I don't think that has to be in opposition to good faith or thoughtful analysis by any means. In fact I'd argue that both elements of this discussion are key to a future where maybe our audience is literate enough to not rage at concepts like "there aren't an infinitely increasing number of pokemon in every new game". And beyond that, idk. I just like talkin' about stuff sometimes.


You must log in to comment.

in reply to @MOOMANiBE's post:

Mhm, I think my ultimate wish for discussions like this is for individual aspects of a work to be considered as part of a larger system and under the goals they were trying to accomplish. I would find, eg, "rain stopping me from climbing was probably to force me to improvise or make certain areas feel more difficult to explore than others, but so often I couldn't find an alternate route or anywhere to make a fire to wait so I always that I felt like I had to give up on whatever I'd been doing and come back later through no fault of my own" a more compelling argument (even if my experience was very different) than "nobody likes not being able to climb something fun in a game about climbing, why did the developers make this Bad Decision to do a Bad Game Design? They should have figured out rain sucks the first time they played it".

I think it's interesting when you can feel the designers' conversation with those design problems (even when they're not problems per se), like tears of the kingdom affording different approaches to rain. It's also pretty explicit proof that Design is Happening, made really clear by having two games you can sort of lay on top of one another

I remember reading an interview with someone that worked on Zelda II for the NES, and he said the game was built exactly to the design doc without any changes…and that’s why he feels like it’s a lackluster game.

Like video games need a certain amount of “oh man, you know what would be cool?!? Let’s change direction a little!!”

I think you’re describing something way more than a little improvisation, but the pathological opposite—a totally clear path—apparently has flaws too.

i mean i get that. most games are made collaboratively, and every game has a certain amount of shit that just is the way it is because the game had to get finished. but i was mostly commenting on how a lot of people online will develop an adversarial relationship with devs where any inconvenience in a game is treated as a result of incompetence or malice. even if the truth is always more complicated, in art criticism (or at least certain flavors of art criticism) a general rule of thumb is to treat everything as a choice, and then think about how those choices impact the work as a whole. and i just wish more people would try to think about game design like that rather than jumping to "the stupid devs are trying to waste my time"

(also wow that rambling post i made on a whim sure did get an overwhelming amount of attention)

...I want to be clear, because I've seen multiple people assuming this -

  • this post isn't any attack on anyone personal
  • this post is not specifically a reply to any one person - I know cohost can feel very small because of how segmented its audience is but this is a topic I saw at least 3 different posts on, and that's why I was commenting on it, not because of something specific you did or said.

...beyond what I said in the other comment, like I said in this post itself, I generally agree with what's been said on the whole - I just think it's funny how often the games I've been on have been such messes of compromises. In my time as an artist I've always felt that demystifying art was important to me, and that includes discussing the ugly, boring, etc parts of it. I'm not really sure why most people seem to have taken what I said here as disagreement or an attack on critical analysis. I think critical analysis is important! I think discussing the messiness of gamedev can and should coexist with that.

in reply to @MOOMANiBE's post:

I don't work in games - I work in software - and to me your point seems inherently true. "games as a product" often have a lot of very interesting and thoughtful design, but they also have a lot of "uhh idk this seems fine and there are more important things to worry about before deadline" and any given thing an outside observer could wonder about seems equally likely to have an incredibly fascinating story behind it as much as it could be unconscious happenstance.

At least, that's how it is in enterprise software all the time.

When asking "Why did X write Y?" when looking at code it seems just as frequent there's an incredibly specific and well reasoned answer as it is someone just... arbitrarily decided that for absolutely no explored reason.

Both things can be true, and there's value in critical analysis even of unconscious design. A lot of really influential stuff in any field is good for reasons unconscious to its creator. That doesn't make the analysis pointless or anything.

But, all the same. Sometimes the "actual answer" is suuuuuper boring.

Anyway have a good Friday. bye

I feel fairly comfortable in saying the vast, vast majority of like...anything that has been released would probably be described by the folks that released them as "a compromised mess" on some level and it's good to recognize that.