Games Programmer, Anime fan, General nerd.

 

Super awkward but trying to improve~ n_n

 

(Have been advised to add: All views my own)


pleasantlytwstd
@pleasantlytwstd

The reason this discussion honestly sucks so fucking much isn't even because BG3, and DnD as a whole is jam-packed to the max with racism. That's the super easy convo that is on the surface that no one really needs to have because we've beaten the daylights out of it.

The convo we NEED to be having is around the white gazer's obsession with needing racism in their fantasies 'to teach an important lesson about race' coupled with the convo about PoC that are WotC adjacent (or pretty close) actively and willingly hand-waving the shit away in the quiet hopes and dreams that maybe, one day, they too can work on Critical Role. This is why I have a Cohost. So I'mma try to hit all the main 'questions' that come up in this mess from what I assume are well meaning people who want to understand 'why is the racism in BG3 such a big deal?' Let's start.

"The racism teaches an important lesson!"

No, the fuck it doesn't.

If you need a crash course on How Racism Fucks Everything, you can do so in real life, every day, by simply having more than two PoC friends and supporting/engaging/consuming PoC activist content. There is nothing in BG3 that is being 'displayed' or 'showcased' that hasn't been witnessed or pulled straight from history in real life. Tieflings being called slurs to their face? Ask a Black grandmother what going to school was like for her generation. People claiming they'll kill you in your sleep? Yea, Jewish people just entered the chat and it looks like they've clicked the convenient 'Raises Hand' button. Being called slurs for your clothing? The list goes on and on of things that happen right now, in reality land, that very much 'inspire' the racism that is in DnD and the reason this claim is a massive ass cop out is because players know that.

We know y'all know that.

But these players never do something about things like that in real life. You love to tell your Black friends about how poorly tieflings and orcs are treated (with no care about the parallels to real life so fuck us if it's triggering), and how you destroyed a goblin camp because of it, or you tried to kill that Druid lady, or that you've made it your personal goal to just piss Astarion off as hard as you can....but if we asked you to, in real life, accompany us to a BLM walk, or to challenge that RTO mandate your job is trying to push, or to maybe just keep some bottled water in your car for homeless people, it's 'eeehhhhhhhhhhhn.......'. Y'all need the racism in the game because it allows you to demonstrate how good of a person you could be with no introspection of how it reports on how good of a person in reality you're choosing not to be. You could be this hero. You could make someone's day. You could keep that kid from being hungry, or step in knowing your privilege will protect you from whatever weird ass assailant is trying to touch my hair, or grope an ass, whatever. And even if YOU didn't have the strength to walk up and do it, you could tell someone you know does. Yet you actively choose to do none of the above, just to turn around and boot up BG3 and go 'but at least here I am aware that disliking Drow because of their skin is bad and that they have every right to be angry at how they've been treated for generations!' Bonus bullshit points if you have that thought 10 minutes after commenting on a BIPOC person's thread about how 'when you call us crackers it hurts our feelings, being mean and violent isn't the way :('.

"The racism is deep seeded and part of the lore."

And?

Listen, I spent this past Sunday with my now husband sitting on the floor like a 10 year old building Legos about Sonic the Hedgehog and watching the Venture Bros. Adult Swim just had that joint on and running all day. In the first two seasons, they were throwing around the R word like it was no one's business. Race jokes were being made all over the place. It was honestly hard for the both of us to listen in fully without wincing on occasion. But then I clocked something.

Right around the time they introduced Jonas Venture, Jr, the writing made a conscious effort to course correct. Monarch said the r-word, which lead to a character flashing to Jonas and saying 'bad word, bad word!' and Jonas, mid-speech, just straight up scolding Monarch about how, and I quote, "we don't say those slurs around here!"

It's that fucking easy y'all.

The writers took all of 2 seconds, to start pushing a new narrative of 'hey we found out this is a bad thing to say so we're going to stop saying it' and baked it RIGHT IN to the next season, going 'effective immediately, we aren't saying that shit anymore.' Now there is a convo to be had about ableism and how deep rooted it is, but we won't go there. The point being conveyed here is saying it's been problematic like this for a long time doesn't mean it has to continue being so. Later seasons went even further in just calling shit straight up racist, or making it clear that a character performing bigotry was not a character you were supposed to be fond of. I'm not saying the Venture Bros. is the bastion of Great Writing-it isn't, it still has a lot of problems-but what I am saying is the ability to not write absolutely asinine and offensively wild drivel has to be something of interest. WotC has not ever been interested in such, nor has most of their purchasing fanbase, because most of their purchasing fanbase is in the segment titled The racism teaches an important lesson! up above.

"You need to chill, many are playing this and don't see the problem."

So full transparency: because I knew the game was going to be a racist ass mess, I was on the fence about getting it at all. My husband hasn't seen much of if because he rolled a Gold Dwarf barbarian so everyone talks to him like he's fucking normal. I was gifted a copy of the game from the lovely Wino Minalien and planned on installing it in September when our data cap wasn't in jeopardy from Comcast and their punk asses. Even amongst all this, I still plan on playing, because I'm plenty resilient enough that if someone wants to come sideways at my tiefling (she will be a tiefling) I will casually murder them. 'But Vanessa', you may say, 'that may disrupt quests down the road and gate you from characters' and dear reader, I am 100% confident that if someone out there has the gonads and frankly audacity to create a mod to make Wyll white that there is someone out there working tirelessly to create a mod where you can have all characters and say 'fuck your decision tree.' I'm not worried about it. We did this with Skyrim. It'll be done here too.

But also a lot of the people playing it and additionally reviewing and reporting on it are whiter than paper on snow. Of course they aren't going to report on the racism. In some cases, they likely didn't even fucking clock it. A lot of nonPoC won't clock racist bigotry unless it's the Worst Possible Form Of It-like calling a tiefling a slur to her face, or nuking a camp full of orc kids because they're orcs. Using a tiefling child for experimentation that as a player you can fuck up and she'll still get killed by a snake. They have to see the High Elf call the Drow scum, a blight on elves, a monster, a mistake, and useless clump of cells before they consider going 'hmm, that seems a bit far.'

PoC writers likely aren't writing about it because they fucking don't want to-not because they didn't notice it, but because they value their peace and don't want to be harassed. Gita wrote a piece flat out praising the game and is currently locked on Twitter to prevent the DM spam, but has shared plenty of the email death threats and harassment they've got because of their article that again, I cannot stress enough, praises the game. Instead of asking PoC who are saying 'racism *again*? UGH' to chill out, maybe ask what all these outlets that gave it 10s, a 97 on MetaCritic, and a 'masterpiece' rating everywhere meant when they said 'the writing is phenomenal.' It's easy to scream and yell (rightfully so) at the writers for writing Yet Another Racist Ass Story, but I am asking once again that we collect up OUR OWN and also start yelling at all of the gamers who are more than content to just pretend I Do Not See It.

"Doesn't this ignore the PoC that are fine with it?"

sigh. Ok. This is....complicated.

So you are going to have people like me, who are very PoC, very queer, whatever, who are going to play and enjoy the game for what it is at the core, which is a actually decently put together CRPG where I can legit make a badass looking tiefling that has Black team members is gonna keep that noseless bitch in camp. I can't stand her, she's just pissy to be pissy. I get she's an alien but she's also a LOT. Me enjoying the game does not mean I auto-default to not caring about the issues within the game-like the fact that my tiefling is going to get stares and be called slurs everywhere she goes. I have strong dislikes that I can't be my favorite alignment of actually chaotic good because you ultimately have to Do Some Bad Stuff to keep the game moving and even align with supposed good people (good people who call people slurs to their face, sacrifice children, occasionally eat people, you know your standard good people fare). I originally intended to steer clear of this convo but it didn't sit right with me that when white queers wanted to jump up and go 'hark! this is racist!' it was An Important Topic but the moment Black players got in and started saying 'yknow this feels really not great' it became a problem. A lot of y'all gotta unpack your racism there but that isn't the purpose of this post and I'm not a therapist.

There's a very quick and gross assumption that gets made that if a PoC is not talking about a PoC issue, it means we're neutral and/or we don't care. I've been on the front lines of these topics for a better part of 15 years and your bitch is *le tired*. I don't want to fight all the time. Some days I do want to just log in, grab my tiefling, my fiery tiefling, my angry horned Black dude, and my bad-decisions wizard and just go ham. My birthday celebration was this past weekend and I just wanted to assemble some Legos and go to the gym. But a big reason I am always clear that I don't rock with the TTRPG space Like That is because of topics like this and how dastardly and fucking ugly they become every. fucking. time. Which is why when we get the PoC who cosign this bullshit I get turbo pissed off and things get MORE complicated.

There isn't enough scrutiny (and I will be real, there isn't space for the scrutiny because weaponizing activism is also a problem) around the visible PoC who will gladly shield WotC from 'The Poor Wittle Intwernet Cwiticisms' because like clockwork they either work for WotC, work alongside WotC, or aspire to work with/for WotC. I don't know who needs to tell y'all this, but if Crit Role ain't noticed you by now, they are not GOING to. Watching as PoC fall all over themselves to essentially push the narrative of 'it's always been like this, when will y'all get over it' is UGLY work-those PoC are asking their PEERS to let WotC continue to slide with their assumptions and portrayals of PoC being in the toilet and swirling. And the trade off the PoC collective gets for it is seeing the same 3-5 PoC working on books or being involved with shows that make LITTLE TO NO TANGIBLE CHANGE 'but hey I got a credit so it's progress'-is it though? Is it really progress to keep all of the racism in the book and all the weird ass racially charged traits and conflicts but slap a BW paladin (I think it was a paladin?) on page like, 40 and then put two Black people in the credits? Is it really progress to hire the Black VA who will nod and smile with all the absurdly racist ass lines they have to read without challenging them?

What's even wilder is the exact same PoC know that they will thusly be thrusted up as the Lawfully Good Paladin Shields of Discourse and still do this mess. Even wilder is that the same people will once every blue moon get on their pages and actively....complain about this exact thing. It's not a useful conversation when we can literally scroll your timeline and see that essentially your entire stance on the conversation is 'take the racism out of fantasy settings', then when people point and say 'including WotC' it becomes 'wait no not like that.' Rude as it may be to say, I'd rather this group just no say anything at all. 9/10 they aren't helping and they just muddy shit further. Which brings us to the original question posed of 'doesn't this ignore the PoC that are fine with it?' because reader, the unfortunate best answer I have for you to that is literally 'nuanced isn't a strong enough word, it is literally complicated.'

The main thing for me, personally, is this: if the racism in BG3 is a massive turn off, or you tried and you couldn't handle it, and you wanna talk about it-especially if you're PoC-you absolutely can, should, and I commend you accordingly. I, as I said, very much was lukewarm the moment I realized it was DnD based because I know WotC just does not fucking care at all about attempting to write something non-racist. It's like they're allergic to the idea. But in watching my husband play, I will not deny that it is a very, very fun game and it's given us a game that we can both FINALLY co-op on where I don't want to pop his ass in the mouth for blowing up a barrel that I explicitly said to not fucking blow up. Your thoughts on the topic are super valid and it's a lot to deal with.

If you're not bothered by any of this? Dope! Pulling up to PoC (or anyone, really) and telling them 'oh well it's fine to me?' helps literally no one! You are not a special star child because you are capable of casually ignoring the big issues in the game! Honestly at that point you are fine to just....go forth and enjoy the game! Maybe write about who your favorite crush is and why it's Karlach! Post screencaps of your character being a baddie! There are lots of other avenues in talking about BG3 that you can pursue that doesn't require you to belittle or dismiss other people's very valid concerns and gripes (especially if you aren't impacted by them).

If you're nonPoC I'mma be real, you need to sit this one out. This is decades worth of bullshit and lack of care that people are challenging (yet again) and if you agree, you need to be sharing and boosting the words of the PoC talking about it. Get in their mentions and fend off people who are making their lives hell. Send them some KoFi money. Figure out ways to support them because some people are receiving harassment and death threats (once again) over the very very low bar ask of 'can we have a story where a driving factor isn't racism'.

And really, in 2023, almost 2024, is having a story that doesn't eat sleep and breathe racism that hard of an ask?


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in reply to @pleasantlytwstd's post:

Its also the part where people very seriously say this message as though it is a different lesson every time. Nope, its the same "racism bad" lesson and every time they will fight for their life claiming that it needs to be there to teach people. At this point I have to ask: who the fuck are you teaching? Who do you know at this juncture that (as you aptly put) is still somehow flunking Racism 101 that isn't a child? And bonus follow up: why are you still associating with them?

Very well said, I'll say my biases are there are several elements I like about bg3, and I generally have come to not like DND over the last year. I've always been highly put off, felt exhausted by, or overall uncomfortable watching much too often white people use "the lore" to add racism or openly racist characters in their games/stories. I don't have the words to describe it, but it's just so shallow yet exhausting to just put that on players, especially people dealing with it irl. Again you said it much better than I can, thank you

Reading your comment just gave me this super cursed ass thought: a lot of DnD players are just another Quentin Tarantino at their table(s) and I hate it

Because 100% "the lore" is what supposedly gives them permission to say and do openly racist af things that they know are racist but "its in character" or whatever, teehee so fun gonna say the N word now---

At least I can say when it comes to tabletop you can still FAFO with the right crew and DM, and I will openly confess few things are as refreshing as having a DM who Doesn't Play That© seeing a player who wants to Be Like That and just making their life-sorry, their "character's" life-fucking miserable.

Yup all of this. Tbh quentin wasn't the first that came to mind but it def works. I will say another thing I realized reading more comments here is another thing I really dislike about DND that comes from me playing older versions (I've heard it got fixed I'm not sure tho) is the concept of wholly evil races are "in the lore" or "a mechanic" to many people, thusly they then can claim it's justified to play racism/accept it or allow it. That's written into the game and enabled, ie many people just kill all goblins/threatening to kill other players playing goblins type stories I've heard/experienced. The fact it's applied to so many things this way, to me at least, implies the game as a whole has such deep flaws that they have impacted the player culture in a systematic way. (I'd hope people can see the parallel to real life in that and understand that's a problem)

And yeah having good groups/dms that are aware of this issue and stop it is so important. I've heard/had enough stories that it's become an actual anxiety.

And to players who want to play racist characters, especially towards your other players, genuinely leave. I don't think it's a far stretch to say no one likes a person who "plays like that."

Also thanks for reading and sorry it's so long I kinda just started rambling sometimes and gotta brute force my way through limited words to make it work. There's def easier to read folks out there, and it means a lot to know I was understood for what I was trying to say. Thank you again.

This is a very tiny thing but with venture Bros I had a big discussion on a video retrospective where the creator mentions Dr Girlfriend/Sheila being a trans joke (which like totally she was).

And all the comments are people insisting that "uh actually it's cos she's based on Jackie Kennedy and also they couldn't afford another VA", as though those facts are a preclusion of what she was rather than just another part of it.

But they course-corrected pretty well for the most part, characters just start treating her as normal. Even if they didn't actually have her be trans (shame, really) I don't know a trans girl who's seen the show and doesn't love her.

Also, if it's a useful insight I can offer, there is a sense of ownership white queers feel towards Tieflings.

I don't think it's very textual, I do think it's something that comes from a community interpretation that gets played as canon. An attachment to the outsider, a sense of reclaiming how we are depicted as deceptive, seductive devils or corrupted by them by religious conservative christians, and I think as a trans person how that "devilishness" monster quality becomes an inescapably embodied thing (but makes it feel cool & alien).

The way Tieflings are racialised as well is very weird because I think the "sometimes people are magically born tieflings and no one can explain why" is very easy to identify with, but they are mostly written to come from a genetically recessive "infernal bloodline" which is a thing I definitely see heavily downplayed and ignored. White queers do not talk about how the thing we identify as queer in Tieflings is also explicitly racialised.

I say that as very much not a defence of people or myself, but because that sense of ownership is going to lead to people taking that criticism in an even more weird, personal, and unhealthy way than they already do and frustrate any attempt to make something better (out of Tieflings, or something new).

Hope I have not been too weird, thank you for the post <3

Reminds me of the really weird angle Deus Ex Mankind Divided try to do with augmented people being a mirror for BLM and the like. Not sure who sat down and came up with that idea and was able to progress it through development lol. Was odd since as far as I can remember none of the other Deus Ex games really did that and mostly handled serious relevant topics well enough.

the "asian" face type is only available on humans and elves (not tieflings or half-elves), or if you want to play as the literal yellow-skinned aliens which i ended up doing

there is that ridiculous fucking quest where the vendor asks you to get a githyanki egg so she can test raise it in a non-evil society or some shit. when you do go inside the creche, there's only one egg that they're going to throw away, so that... you don't... feel bad? about this absurd quest??

Something I always keep in the back of my mind when play crpgs: will the racism be too much for me to play? Not "is this racist", 'cuz all of them are. But how much can I ignore?
Racism is exhausting and I'm not sure why so many games want to add it in for "flavor"

Exactly, and its a zero-sum game to try and argue that "if your game has racism I won't play it at all"-congrats, guess we're playing little to nothing

But expecting people who are deeply and directly impacted by this mess to say nothing at all is WILD. Do I want to have an 8 hour discussion over it? Not at fucking all. But I should definitely be allowed to at minimum say "wow this sucks" without causing an extinction level event in all spaces???

I should also be allowed to just say that and be left alone as opposed to required to discuss about it for the next week???

thanks for writing this; I've had many moments of "this seems uncomfy but I'm not very confident in my assessment bc I'm white" while playing BG3; I went looking for a critical discussion of this subject a few days ago and didn't find anything besides white redditors rationalizing it

I empathize with the tired. Especially the whole 'no matter HOW I present it, I will be fucking besieged by a tidal wave of both reactionaries and garden variety contrarians that there is no fucking functional difference between' thing. It never fucken ends. Wishin' you as much fortune as I can, with being heard, and receiving as-little-as-possible dogpiling.

If your husband and you both have the game on steam you can download it from his computer over your local network without using data. Fuck Comcast and great post on your part

'But Vanessa that may disrupt quests down the road and gate you from characters' is such a weird statement for accepting things like this. My friend was perplexed by my choice to not do an obviously (in universe) bad thing in Elden Ring because it locked me out of some side content, and I replied "it's a role playing game, though?". Now, I'm about the same color as milk, but if a side quest in an RPG requires me to be okay with a racist character hanging out with me I don't really feel the need to do that side quest. Regardless of if its modded in, or not. Sorry for rambling on your post but the idea that you should accept bad things to "see all the content" is so off putting to me for some reason, or even that "seeing all the content" should be a goal in the first place.

clarification: i dont mean to imply that one shouldn't develop mods for this kind of thing, right? or that like "if you dont like it just dont play it" (awful, piss-brain take). i just think that especially for a game like baldurs gate, the idea that "a playthrough in which actions you took (killing a racist prick) disrupted quests down the road" is somehow lesser because there, by volume, "less content", is so... gamer-brain to me? whats lesser about it. if the game presents it as an option then by definition its a valid way to play the game.

why is it so hard for people to sit with “I like this game AND ALSO it is racist” like… please grow the fuck up people, you’re not going to psychically break just because someone points out a game you’re playing has racism. Gamers I stg.

This is an incredibly good post and I'm better for having read it. The amount of water carried for a setting as racist-by-design as Forgotten Realms is wild to me and I am so tired of seeing the same arguments recycled over and over to defend it even in this rendition. I've seen people saying this is the least problematic rendition of Forgotten Realms they've experienced, which is an incredibly disheartening thing to hear about an entire world that a company has decided to make their default.

Honestly part of what I hate about the fantasy racism in bg3 is that it's buried any potential conversation about how it's fucked up that they felt the need to include real world racism too.
There's a character you can encounter in act 1 who is a member of a forgotten realms equivalent of a Roma clan ("The Gur") and a party member can say something that can be -explicitly called out as racist- in the text about them, which the character just laughs off as 'Oh, don't worry about it, they've probably just heard ."

Why include that? Why include him -laughing off being insulted-.

(To make matters worse he's apparently explicitly tied to the vampire character's backstory because yeah, let's get all the stereotypes in there I guess)