amikumanto

And the ultimate bloging begins

  • she/her

28 / autistic / Toronto



blackle
@blackle

my underdeveloped opinion on cohost (which likely comes from having not read the manifesto) is that I don't fully understand the ideology that is ruling out volunteer work. it seems contradictory to the fact that we post as volunteers. the entire css crimes community was volunteers, and in doing so we got cohost on The Verge. that helped cohost. what is stopping it from accepting our help in a larger capacity?


blackle
@blackle

based on my experience over the last four months running a hackerspace, it's become clear that people want to see a good thing thrive. and that means being flexible, having trust, and asking for help when you need it.

it seems that the major difference though is that my hackerspace is a non-profit, but cohost is a cooperative. perhaps the ideological problem is that a for-profit company should never take labour for free. that's commendable, but the fact of the matter is that the world needs cohost. it seems like a good chunk of our members came from cohost and from that we are incredibly close to being financially sustainable ourselves. YOUR success is OUR success.

if cohost weathers this storm through volunteer labour, then all we ask is you pay it forward. if cohost doesn't survive, then nothing more good can come from it.

EDIT: I don't write this to demand that cohost goes open source or w/e. what I'm trying to say is the entire community understands if the ideology is bent a bit to make this great thing thrive.


Inumo
@Inumo

As someone who has done community-critical volunteer work before, I think the desire to avoid accepting volunteer labor goes beyond ethics around money (though that is probably a major component). Quite simply, the best volunteers are also the ones who are most likely to burn out, and that burnout can hit so hard that it either leaves them avoiding the very thing they helped build or leads them to harmful, self-serving decisions. Old BBCode forum moderators become simultaneously draconian and capricious, or they just disappear from the forum entirely. Masto admins at best withdraw to secluded corners of the platform and at worst bail from the platform entirely, whether or not they nuke their reputation beforehand. Coders get sick of constantly working to improve a system, only for the rest of the community to reject or at least not appreciate those efforts, until they decide the whole thing is bunk & start denouncing it to their friends. In short, while volunteer labor may produce a better product, it also creates volunteer churn that can lead to random pockets of animosity later down the line. From a "we want people to like using Cohost" perspective, then, volunteer burnout is a losing proposition – you're likely ruining people on Cohost in the hopes of making it a better website. From a "we want to maximize Cohost's lifetime" perspective, Cohost still depends a lot on people saying "yeah Cohost is Good Actually" and is already dealing with random pockets of animosity (with varying degrees of fact-based criticism). Adding volunteer burnouts who can fuel those fires only makes the struggle for survival worse, and you can only hope the value-add of volunteer labor's products can counteract that challenge.

Obviously paying people doesn't ameliorate burnout per se—just ask nonprofit employees—but it does do a few useful things: establish a hierarchy of priorities, provide a clear standard for "is the work worth it" (i.e. "is doing this work worth $X to me"), and define a working relationship with a simple exit plan (You Can Just Quit). I think it's an understandable and respectable choice, then, to avoid accepting volunteer labor & try to pursue other routes towards stability first. As the financial update implies, I don't think staff is 100% ruling out volunteer labor as a possible necessary path to keep Cohost alive, just that they'd rather keep things within their (paid) worker-owned co-op if they can help it.

2 hours later PS: I do wanna also be clear that like, none of the knock-on effects of volunteer labor & burnout like, "irreparably taint" a project or something. I am & will continue to be a Masto user, I have & will hopefully one day again volunteer my time/energy/knowledge in local kink spaces. I just also know that the costs of volunteering are often missed because of missing direct experience, cultural pressures (e.g. Microsoft loves to cultivate FOSS dev because it's basically free labor), or optimistic attitudes around avoiding burnout (it's an inevitability that is managed, not a problem that is solved).


You must log in to comment.

in reply to @blackle's post:

I get the impression the idea is that we still maintain some degree of personal ownership over our posts that volunteers could not reasonably expect over the codebase - you can post what you like, repost them elsewhere, edit them whenever and however you feel like, take your ball and go home (and every time cohost starts running out of money they keep emphasizing they're working on export tools etc.), none of which can reasonably be done on a social media platform's kernel that a for-profit company has already promised as collateral to a bank, or anything else that could make a meaningful dent in the staff's workload. By the same token, the site is constructed such that it's almost impossible for any one user to post so badly the entire platform goes down, and nobody has to work very hard at making sure you don't do that.

Is it an insurmountable problem? Possibly not. Would just letting users go ham on the website without an extremely labor-intensive project to transition the site to a risky new development model and manage contributors generate an absolutely incredible amount of drama that'd risk breaking the website every couple months? Definitely

i think, in the cohost team's eyes, the issue is taking volunteer labor while also having paid employees and making money off the site. it is objectively an unequal situation, and i understand why it's an ethical sticking point. with that said, the point of volunteer labor is that it is voluntary - or should be - if someone is offering to do unpaid labor, that deserves different ethical considerations.

I think the main issue is they can't put cohost under an open source license due to the funder IP deal, so they would basically be asking people to contribute to a codebase that can close up and leave everyone hanging any second.

I still agree they could ask for volunteer help on a more closed source basis, I'm sure they can find a few trusted people from their community who would be fine with literally donating their time.

I thiiiiink there are maybe issues with using volunteer labor that is the same kinds of labor as staff labor in a for-profit context? IIRC the legal risk of that, has been impacting Metafilter and is part of their transition to a non-profit. Though I think that was around volunteers doing key administrative labor as part of the now defunct metafilter steering committee

there's also (idk if this is their reasoning) a bias towards who volunteers and who already has the skills and therefore what gets implimented vs not, and they've already been accused of "selectively choosing features to make" (which... yeah? thats how software works, things aren't all equal work. but i digress)

and i wonder if that factors into it a bit too

in reply to @blackle's post:

One perspective I have based off reading the manifesto is that Cohost (and ASSC as a whole, really) is an experiment attempting to prove that it's possible to build a sustainable company in the pre-venture-capital way of taking a loan and paying it off once you're profitable, without selling equity, and while paying a living wage. In that sense, taking volunteer effort or reducing wages compromise the validity of the experiment.

I don't think this invalidates or argues against your perspective of Cohost the specific community that exists, nor does any failure to achieve this prove that it's not possible, only that this specific attempt failed to meet those criteria. But I would be somewhat sad in that regard if they had to fall back on volunteered labor like that, if also glad from those other perspectives for it.

I guess my question is...what would the volunteer labor even do at this point? The amount of debt they have may very well be in the six figures by now. I don't know what more coding would do to overcome that. I genuinely don't think tipping and subscriptions on a site this size would bring in enough money to cover their current monthly losses, much less start touching the debt. You can argue the volunteer work bit with them all day but what would the extra labor actually get them in terms of revenue? I can't really name a single financially sustainable social media website with actual employees (versus something like a forum or fedi instance someone is running as a hobby). Where does the money come from even with the volunteering?

I think you're right about this from the "it's unethical/let's bend the rules" standpoint for the record, I just don't know that it makes a difference.

It's extremely hard to say because of how they've done financial updates. They've changed how they lay things out or calculate things update to update (like in some cases counting entire months, some cases counting from certain dates to certain dates, sometimes just giving broad strokes instead of tables of numbers)...but they started in early 2020 and Cohost did not launch until mid 2022, with a couple of months of beta beforehand, so they have at least roughly 2 years with no revenue whatsoever--that's a lot of debt. From the few times I've seen numbers that were actually halfway usable, I don't think they're contributing much towards paying that off in their losses, it appears to be almost entirely salary.

The issue seems to be related to liablity. It's a company and anything volunteers do the company is liable for.
This would be less of an issue if they reincorporated as a nonprofit but running a small nonprofit in the US is absolutely hellish- you need a board separate from the people who actually do the work, but you also need that board to be invested in the work, which to me has always felt very contradictory. And your board does need to Do Work so you have to have some incentive for it- volunteer board members seem to stick around until they get tired of their post

in reply to @Inumo's post: