amikumanto

And the ultimate bloging begins

  • she/her

28 / autistic / Toronto



ghoulnoise
@ghoulnoise

holy fucking shit!!!!!!!!!!

I've had this in my drafts to finish writing up for a few weeks but today I made another discovery that has pushed me to finally write it up lol.

My PC had a few hiccups over the past couple of years. Nothing so serious that I was truly concerned (at first) but, annoyances, to be sure. ("PC? Weren't you talking about a TV??" you might be thinking to yourself. Yes. I'll get there. Oh, will I ever get there.)

For a long time, the most serious hiccup with my PC was being unable to open Display Settings on my PC. I had to use Nvidia control panel to make adjustments. Whatever. Didn't affect my ability to work or anything. I had just updated to Windows 11 so I thought maybe something went wrong in the update. So I did another install (which meant I had to re-install a ton of music plugin stuff on my computer which takes ages given all the stuff I use.)

The fresh install still didn't fix it. So I simply ignored it for the better part of 2 years.

Over time, so slowly I didn't really clock them as being related, other things started to fail.

I have a Komplete Kontrol S88 midi Keyboard that interfaces with Kontakt and Komplete Kontrol in my DAW. I can use the keyboard to adjust settings or select instruments without having to look at my computer screen. At some point last year this stopped working. I could still use it to input midi, and I was afraid I'd have to do a fresh install of all the Native Instruments stuff I use, so I kept putting off trying to fix it until I had less going on with work. It worked, just not as well as it should!

Then, Task manager started to hang in weird ways. It wouldn't close unless I forced it closed with ProcExp. Whatever! Computers are weird!

I had trouble getting video capture cards to connect when I considered streaming Splatoon. Whatever! I'm not a streamer, I should probably use that energy on something else.

But then, in March, I had some things fail that, turns out, are pretty necessary to using the computer.

I was trying to get remote desktop to work on my tablet so I could work in the living room closer to my cat, Grendel, who was still very much in mourning for his best friend (<3 Guts). Grendel is at his happiest when he's napping on the couch next to a human. So I thought, hey, I could do some stuff in remote desktop mode! It wasn't something I used very often because it doesn't play super nice with audio, it'd been probably over a year since I last used it, but I knew it had worked and had been easy to set up.

Well. It refused to connect despite appearing as an option on my tablet. And as I was trying to troubleshoot this problem...

My task bars on my PC disappeared! If I moused over the spot they should have been I got the loading circle. And my monitors would jitter!

System settings were nowhere to be found. To navigate I had to open Task Manager (which if you recall was already acting strange and sluggish for the past year) in order to open the command panel, which I'd then use to launch programs. Or, attempt to. If I tried to open the system settings, my PC spat out "Uhhh what's "Settings"? We ain't got settings" (in command I got "C:\Windows\System32>start ms-settings: Access is denied." despite being in admin mode)

SO I started to panic a wee bit. It's not a great time for me to possibly need a new PC! Plus, it works great when it works.

I manually backed up everything important from my main PC drive (as I could not access the windows backup program because it lived in settings!!!!!!!!) and downloaded the Windows 11 installer to a drive in case I needed to completely wipe my computer and start fresh.

In a last ditch effort, I tried updating my Nvidia GeForce graphics driver and restarted.

Lo and behold, my taskbars came back and I could access settings again! Huzzah!

This lasted for 6 days. And then the taskbars disappeared AGAIN along with Settings.

At least by now I'd become somewhat comfortable using command to get around, so I was less panicked than I was in round 1. I at least knew the computer wouldn't crash and delete all my shit suddenly (plus I had my backups that were up-to-date).

I asked my friends if they'd ever heard of anything like this, and Cohost's own @vogon helped me poke around some additional graphics driver stuff in case updating to the new Nvidia program that's in beta would solve my issue. This felt super promising when I went into safe mode and saw taskbars. So, I did the update, and, as before, when I updated, the taskbars came back! But there were gone again almost immediately. My screen literally started flickering and they vanished. It was so fucking bizarre.

I turned to google once more, hoping that somehow, as useless as google is these days, maybe I'd find what I needed to fix my damn computer!

Somehow, against all odds, I found it. I happened to use the exact right string in my search to pull up some reddit threads. The first one didn't have anything useful, but a few results down I spotted "no taskbar and task manager freezes" holy moly!!!

At first glance however, there wasn't anything useful. But then I spotted some collapsed comments at the bottom of the thread. I knew more than likely they just had comments like "sucks bro" or "this is why i use linux :/" But I expanded them and inside was a link to a Microsoft forum post. I kept my expectations in check and clicked on the link. What I saw had my nearly vibrating in my seat.

Screenshots showing the path from my google search to reddit to a minimized comment that contained a link to a microsoft forum post with the solution to my several year long problem - caused by our TV

This was the solution.

Narayan B
Nov 16, 2023, 12:20 AM

So I finally solved it!

Source of the problem: an Android TV (HiSense model) connected to my network. Yes. A TV caused this issue.

HISENSE? LIKE THE SAME BRAND OF TV I HAVE HAD SINCE 2020???

I followed the instructions. I deleted keys generated by our TV for 5 straight minutes. 5 Minutes of like 200BPM clicking. I restarted. Everything worked again. I laughed so hard I cried. I felt like I'd solved a murder. The main suspect was the PC but the culprit was the TV in the other room. And he almost got away with it!!! If I had spent a few days carrying out a clean install and re-installing all my work stuff, my problem would have come back. If I had taken the PC out back and shot it and replaced it with a fancy new computer, the problem would have come back.

Because the problem was never the PC. The Problem was my Hisense TV in the next room.

Once I carried this out, I was able to open display settings for the first time (outside of safe mode) in 2 years. When I deleted the keys, my Task Manager started behaving normally again. I turned around and saw that my keyboard was once again displaying the VST controls on its screen. The fancy midi keyboard was back at full functionality. I was able to connect my CRT as a display again using the HDMI -> RCA converters I'd assumed had stopped working (nope! they still worked, they always worked!)

Which brings me to today. Almost a month later everything still works. So, I decided to see if remote desktop would magically work again. The answer is: Yes. Yes, in fact, my TV was the reason my remote desktop connection had failed the month before.

So here I am, sitting on my couch with my tablet and bluetooth keeb and mouse, writing this post in remote desktop mode so I could attach screenshots of this saga to my post without sitting at my PC. Grendel is snoring beside me as I write.

As a treat for reading this far, please enjoy two screenshots of my friends reacting to the solution of my great mystery.

friends reacting in discord, the overall sentiment: what the fuck that is so cursed friends reacting in discord, the overall sentiment: what the fuck that is so cursed

adding: the TV in question, in case you're curious: Hisense 50Q8G- 50" Smart 4K ULED™ Android TV with Quantum Dot Technology (Canada Model)


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in reply to @ghoulnoise's post:

what's truly incredible is, this is the second reason for me, and frankly I wouldn't be surprised if they happened at the same time. a software update last year came with a new license where they invented something even worse than an arbitration clause (you have to contact their lawyers first, and they have to approve arbitration; and this explicitly applies to class action) and the notification had only an "accept" button and there was also an explicit "circumventing the dialog and using the software counts as acceptance" bit. so my Hisense got an immediate factory reset and lives offline, running software prior to that license... which is probably the only reason I never saw these issues.

what's really insidious about this is like.. yeah, i think probably most hisense TV owners are just having their windows computers mysteriously start breaking like OP, and perhaps some of them have wasted money on trying to repair or replace their PCs as a result, or at least lost the ability to do something important for their work etc. -- heck, this sounds a lot like an FCC Part 15 violation when it comes to emitting signals that cause harmful interference with other devices -- but good luck getting a class action suit going about it in the binding-arbitration world!

First, WTF

Second, I think maybe Microsoft should do something about this, because you should not be able to make Windows misbehave by sending random network packets! The system should probably limit the number of UPnP devices that can be registered at the same time.

Funnily, I got a similar “spooky action at a distance” issue, but it was almost the reverse situation: I couldn't watch TV if a specific computer on my network was turned off.

This was a fun combination of factors:

  • My ISP’s TV box receives TV via multicast UDP, so when I’m watching TV, multicast packets go from the router to the TV box
  • I have a dumb Ethernet switch between them, which replicates the incoming multicast packets on all of its ports. Since other connected devices just ignore multicast packets they are not interested in, this is fine, but…
  • At this time I had one computer on the switch whose Ethernet card stayed up but switched to 10 Mbps when the computer was turned off. No idea why.

So when the computer is off and the TV box is on, the switch dutifully retransmits the multicast packets on the 10 Mbps port. Since 10 Mbps is not sufficient for that, its send queues fill up, until it starts dropping random packets on all connections. Fun.

My worst "spooky action" story has to be the ISP-provided wifi router that indirectly killed my iBook G4.

For some reason, whenever the iBook connected to the wifi, the system would lock up after about 20 minutes, and after a reboot, lock up progressively faster until it was unusable.

I figured it was a dying HDD, but I tried multiple drives and none of them fixed the problem. Finally in the process of the insane disassembly process[1], I snapped the tiny power connector off the mainboard and that was the end of it. :(

Replaced it with a PowerBook G4 I found locally, booted up fine when the seller tested it in front of me, brought it to the office, worked fine there ... got it home and it locked up again.

Turns out for whatever reason I never figured out, my specific Zyxel modem/router combo will cause the wifi in old PowerMacs to hard crash the computer. I fixed it by scoring an old Airport Express and sticking it in a DMZ. Eventually the Zyxel died and I replaced it, and the TP-Link I bought worked just fine.

[1] It's so insane that the iFixit guide pauses on step 11 to say:

Breathe deeply. Trying times are ahead, but we promise the lower case does come off.

It is truly insane how deeply Apple buried a notoriously unreliable model&brand hard drive in the G4 iBooks. Replacing the dead drive in mine was a harrowing experience I don't wish to repeat; so many screws of slightly different lengths and threads, brittle acrylic plastic, razor sharp metal shielding...

Yeah, this is definitely a problem with Windows that Microsoft has to fix. While the TV probably shouldn't be changing UUIDs, Windows definitely shouldn't react to that by locking up Settings, Task Manager and taskbar.

As to network card running at 10 Mbps while the computer's off, that's to enable WoL (wake-on-LAN). 10 Mbps is used because it needs the least power. Another fun problem you can get with dumb switches and turned off computers is with some network cards in laptop docks, which will send pause frames if computer is off (or not connected at all). Pause frames should tell the switch to stop sending any traffic for some amount of time, but broken switches will relay pause frames to other devices on the network, which will then stop sending traffic, effectively killing the whole network.

This is why my TV is a cheap RCA-branded panel I found on Amazon with zero smart features whatsoever... I will guard that thing with my life. When I moved we actually transported it separately, carefully protected in the back seat of the car, just to be sure it didn't break in transit, 'cause god knows if I could find another dumb TV again.

I already don't trust "smart" anything but what the christ

There are so many points where this problem could have been prevented from existing even beyond the seemingly extremely basic "don't make it spam unique keys forever," and yet.

Holy shit, this is like the holy grail of figuring out an extremely stupid long-running PC issue. Just a few days ago I figured out that the reason my beefy PC has had strange performance issues for at least a year is that at some point Windows seemed to have set my paging file to be on my giant storage HDD instead of any of my SSDs. Fixing that felt pretty damn good, I can't imagine how good it must have felt to see everything working again.

I heard about an issue back in the days of XP? or ME? where if Windows encountered I/O errors on a drive, it would slow down and try again. For a non-removable drive it would remember, and keep using that lower speed in the future.

That made sense for a failing hard disk. Problem is, it applied the same logic to CD-ROMs. So, you use one damaged CD, and Windows permanently slows down your drive.

holy shit... my wife's computer keeps having weird problems, even after we've ship-of-thesused everything except the hard drives, and we have two smart-tv-like devices (an nvidia shield hooked up to a dumb tv, and an LG TV that I connected to the network after I jailbroke it but I think disconnected it after a while realizing I didn't use it for anything) - is there any way verify if another device could be causing this issue?

if you are comfortable using Regedit, the post with the solution on the Microsoft forums has instructions for how to check. it's the section that says to look at Computer\HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\SYSTEM\ControlSet001\Services\DeviceAssociationService\State\Store in the Windows registry, where hundreds if not thousands of UUIDs will be present if this particular problem is happening. this can be pretty intimidating, though, and I would fully understand if you're not comfortable doing that

you might also consider investigating the power source for her computer, as on more one occasion I've seen weird recurring issues be related to the wall current. the problems went away after putting the system on a UPS, which is something I now do with almost every computer I use that isn't a laptop, even if blackouts are rare, but you can also try just moving it to a wall socket on a different circuit in the building/apartment

normally i like to give tech some benefit of a doubt when it's designed perplexingly but i've been rotating this in my mind for like 15 minutes and asking, with an increasing level of distress, "why would they do this" "why would they DO this" "why WOULD they do this". and so on.

oh my fucking god. uhhhhh thank you for this, i have been going "well my task bar keeps disappearing but i'm running a custom one, it's probably out of date... oh my screen has started flicking, well my laptop is getting pretty old..." for months now

With the Komplete Kontrol, if you have the original S88 (the one with small displays by each knob instead of the two big screens in the middle), there was an update to the software that obsoletes the original model and only works with the mk2/mk3 updated versions (the ones with the big screens). Your choices are to either upgrade to a newer keyboard, or to downgrade the Komplete Kontrol software to v2.9 and make sure to never update it ever again.

Personally, I opted to just switch away from NI hardware.

It turbo-sucks.

(1) This is amazing and you are a hero!

Because... Well, because it's awesome, but also because:
(2) Brb, moving my HiSense TV of similar vintage to a VLAN. We had a set of weird "the network is terrible" issues a few months ago on my spouse's computer that I could never replicate, and now I'm wondering...

Also, I had an absolutely wonderful dog named Grendel at one point. Excellent name choice. 🤓 John Gardner's book of the same title is a fantastic read if you're a fan (or, more likely, you've already read it).

Thanks again for sharing and congratulations on solving this. Amazing.

I don't use my TV much. I have an old 720p LCD "flat" panel from like 2010 or earlier and occasionally I think it'd be nice to have a contemporary screen to replace it when I do occasionally run something to it like a console or as a monitor.

But I keep putting it off because I know how smart TVs have ruined the market. That 4K set you got for so cheap with HDR is a fucking data thief. Never take one of these things online.

TVs are normie tech. That means they're loaded to the eyebrows with bullshit.

God I hate smart TVs even harder on your behalf than I already did before I read this. When my trusty dumb 48" Insignia (yeah, I know... this one is the rarest of Best Buy bangers though; bought used from a ramshackle refurbisher in a crappy industrial park like 6 or 7 years ago, and it has been rock solid) goes, I'm going to be very displeased to probably have to replace it with a smart TV.

sounds more like an illegal jamming device... holy moly... thats like putting up green wallpaper and later finding out the arsenic in it is the reason for the headaches and whatnot...

"Because the problem was never the PC. The Problem was my Hisense TV in the next room." to be fair the fact that a broken device on the network can cause the Windows UI to completely implode like this is probably Windows' fault

Fucked up and evil. Smart TVs need to be taken out back and shot.

Reminds me of a cursed issue with my PC that I solved, where every time I put it to sleep on Linux, it would wake up in a few seconds. Turns out that with Gigabyte B550 motherboards, if you use an M.2 SSD, the GPP bridge (some AMD CPU thing, I'm not 100% on how it works) will talk too much and wake up the computer. The solution is to set a systemd job to run at boot and disable GPP0 being able to wake the computer.

My Hisense - 50" Class H8G Quantum Series LED 4K UHD Smart Android TV" (2020) bricked itself by installing an OTA update that put it in a fuckloop. Panel was still great, no way to fix since Hisense never released firmware for it. Irony is, we never used its "smart" features ever.

We bought it because try buying a non-Smart TV in this day and age.

Oh my hecking goodness, and I thought the smart TV moment I had a while ago was bad (TV kept crashing and rebooting over and over due to there not being enough space on it, as much as I tried to disable/delete some of the bloatware on it, and it would keep interrupting anyone from watching stuff via a cable box connected via HDMI)...

Super glad you found the cause, maybe society should consider "dumb" technology instead of "smart" technology.....

...This makes me glad my TV has only been connected to the internet for about a half hour ever to update it. Used an Ethernet cable so it wouldn't know my wifi. Though that was just to prevent spying. All this is just what the fuck.

Smart TVs are pretty bad at being smart TVs as well. With hindsight next time I'll buy a dumb TV and continue using a Google TV dongle. It's not perfect, but at least it gets updates and it's replaceable.