asher

a nice jewish queer

storyteller, designer, 5'1" goblin
🌴 🎸


ponett
@ponett

i've been thinking a lot lately about game design literacy. i often see people who, if asked, would more than likely respond that yes, video games are art - and yet they seem to refuse to engage with elements of game design on that artistic level. not just trying to suss out Themes from mechanics, but even simple things like trying to understand why a dev team might have made the design choices they did, how individual things that you may find annoying may be important for the overall experience. there's a lack of curiosity about design. maximum convenience for the player and every single second of your experience being "fun" are still treated as universally desirable, even though no other artistic medium is widely judged in this way

i've been seeing these sorts of things a lot lately specifically because of tears of the kingdom, which is a game that's gotten nearly unparalleled praise from critics while also departing from the traditional design of both older zelda games and other open world games. this leads to many, many debates over the design of these games. some of this is fair, but so often random takes fall into "this personally annoyed me, so it's bad" without any further thought

"why does this game need so many wide open fields with nothing in them?" because empty space isn't necessarily wasted space. there's value in wide open areas. there's value in travel time. there's value in quiet time. there's value in having pretty landscapes to ride your horse across. this is true of composition in other forms of visual art, and it's true in level design

"why can't the game just give me a piece of heart directly instead of making me backtrack to a goddess statue?" because it gives you a reason to go back to town. maybe you go back to redeem your spirit orbs, and while there you find a side quest, or do some cooking, or sell your excess items, or notice that the NPCs are doing something else due to advances in the state of the game world. these sorts of games intentionally create a contrast between the dangers of the rest of the world and the safety of towns as part of their core loops, and they give you reasons to go back (you have to rest at an inn, you have to restock your potions, etc.) so that the main towns become comfortably familiar environments. you'll most likely have a much stronger emotional attachment to a video game town you visited regularly throughout your playthrough compared to one you passed through exactly once

the big one is, of course, the weapon durability, which people have been arguing about nonstop for the last six years. i won't deny that i think weapons break a little too easily, and that it wouldn't kill the game to make everything last twice as long. i don't begrudge people who decide it's not for them. but that gear system is central to the game's design and the way it distributes rewards. the fact that you can go off in any direction and potentially find a really good sword is crucial - as is the fact that that sword will break

but there's a fundamental incuriosity about why the game is designed that way, sometimes even among professional gaming pundits. i keep thinking back to james stephanie sterling's controversial review of the game, which opens with:

Nobody has ever been enjoying a videogame and thought, "this would be more fun if my sword broke." That is an absolute statement, and literally nobody on earth is more averse to absolutes than I am, but for as long as I live I’ll assert this particular statement on weapons to be 100% true.

said review was, inevitably, swarmed with angry and/or transphobic gamers, and thus any hope for good faith criticism of her piece was out the window. but it feels very illustrative of this whole phenomenon. this design element annoyed me, so therefore it's Objectively Wrong and should not be in any game ever. further down in the review, arguments trying to explain the thought behind the durability system are written off as excuses and/or blind nintendo fanboyism

game design is complicated. i don't expect this to be instinctual knowledge everyone is born with. most players will never really have a reason to think about these things. you get a better understanding of design choices when you try to make games yourself, or when you listen to designers talk about their own work. i don't think it's a coincidence that game maker's toolkit started getting less prescriptive about game design and has shifted more to a "here's how different developers have tried to solve the same problems" approach now that mark's making his own game and interviewing other devs directly. (no shade towards mark brown - i have watched the 2d zelda boss keys episodes too many times as research for my own dungeon design work.)

and the thing is, if you do try to think about these things on a design level, fitting individual choices into the big picture, and you still don't like it? then at least now you have a more informed opinion on it. to me, that just leads to better criticism and healthier discourse. you are allowed to see what a game is going for and still not like it for any number of reasons. you do not have to like open world zelda more than other types of zelda. games are art, and art is subjective. but i just wish more people would get to that point. i wish it wasn't always a rhetorical question when people ask "what were they thinking?" i wish it could be a conversation with some back and forth at all, rather than being boiled down to angry hot takes over what is or isn't Objectively Fun


authorx
@authorx

The reason I've found the weapon breakage discourse so completely exhausting is how it seems like many people can't just accept that a design choice may not "work" or be "fun" for them without being objectively Wrong and Bad. And, sure, some are aggressive in the other direction, but I've seen way more "this is objectively bad and if you tell me it's good you're Wrong" than the reverse, and "this is part of a larger system and supports other design decisions and fulfills needs other than Always Be Fun" is not the same argument in reverse, but it's treated like an equally hostile position.


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in reply to @ponett's post:

I haven't played too much of NMH 1 (only got to one boss) but people complained so much about the busy work between EPIC STAGES. and, I'm just thinking about how game design can do more than just "be fun". Cause it felt neat to go do odd jobs and then throw that money to progress.

I also played Flower, Sun and Rain (same studio + director) and that game will fuck with you, annoy you over and over and THEN relieve some of that annoyance. It felt cathartic as all hell and helped tie me tothe character who was also annoyed for the same reasons.

it's something i think about a lot. like it's just

every single game design decision has probably been talked over and talked over and laboriously discussed and playtested over and over and over again no matter WHAT game it is. like i'd say that i couldn't fathom the amount of time it took to come to each decision...

except i can, because that's basically what you do when you make most art. ESPECIALLY for games, given how labor intensive they are.

That sort of attitude definitely frustrates me. People in MMORPGs for example never seem to understand that things have tradeoffs and will blindly bash things like "why is there are no gear upgrades after a point in gw2" or "why is there 'borrowed power' in wow" or "why is there level scaling in <>, that sucks" without thinking about the upsides and downsides, the problems trying to be solved and the constraints.

Lots of things are definitely very subtle. Like in raid fights, you often want periods where almost no boss mechanics are happening because it gives your players a mental reprieve. "Quiet" and "intense" parts in anything are important to give things texture, to give a flow of activity that is more natural to people, to serve as punctuation, etc.

https://cohost.org/Mightfo/post/517930-yeah-i-think-its-im Also, somewhat related is some thoughts i made here about slow things being satisfying and/or creating design space, rather than just "SLOW=BAD FAST=GOOD"

That said, sometimes developers do just make very bad decisions or grossly ignore other examples to learn from or design themselves into a corner. As always, the difficulty is discerning when something is genuinely whack and when things are being overlooked, and people are quick to jump to conclusions and also default to their biases.

A lot of the conversations about this sort of thing get ultimately eaten up by emotional perceptions of the developers in question. "These developers fucked up one time according to popular perception so we immediately blame them as fuckups for any thing we kneejerk dislike" vs "These developers LOVE their players and LISTEN and they CARE about the game (UNLIKE OTHER DEVS WHO YOU SHOULD HATE) so i'll handwave any criticism away."

we had that period around the 2010s of seeing new gaming verticals pop up that tried to change the conversation away from talking about these things as products in measurement of Fun and Graphics, but almost all of those gotten eaten by venture capital in one way or another, and IMO the discourse has regressed. conversations around recent games like jedi survivor or redfall have had an incredibly consumerist framing that's just tedious to listen to

those aforementioned writers still putter around on twitter, and there are still some video essayists that try to engage with the medium in a more meaningful way (errant signal, matthewmatosis, minimme, etc), but for the most part it feels a lot like we're back in the 2000s with how games get talked about

what made this personally click for me was maybe 6 or 7 years ago, i was watching someone play a crusty old dungeon crawler for very early PC. When you leveled up, you didn't get the stats and skills right away, it'd just mean you can get those next time you're in town. You'd have to head back, drop off all your warriors at the dojo so they can train their stats to the new cap, and drop off all your mages with the town wizard so they can learn new spells. Then have all your remaining characters go around shopping, and resting at the inn to pass time. Then go pick everyone else up, do a second round of shopping when you realize you bought the wrong stuff since you can't see everyone's stats when they're not in the party, etc...

It was all such a huge pain, with tons of busywork every time you leveled up! And that might've been too far, but the whole time i was just thinking... heck, we've really forgotten about the value of roleplaying in the past few decades, haven't we? We should start going back, at least a little! "Bad Game Design" (heavy sarcasm quotes) can be exactly the spice that something needs to become amazing. ❤️

  1. This post is really good and I don't think I even realized how few people think about design in games, and
  2. I love the fact that weapons break in botw/totk, it's such an essential part of the experience for me and I cannot imagine enjoying it nearly as much without that mechanic. I consistently felt overflooded with weapons if anything, rather than that they were breaking too fast. It's even more essential in totk where experimenting with different combined items is a core mechanic, and breakage further drives it. I love this mechanic and really, truly, never understood the criticism.

every time i've seen people complain about weapon durability i've had to wonder, are these people playing the same game as me? are they actually experiencing any problems or negative impacts from durability? or are they just upset about the very concept of Losing Anything because they never learned to just use potions in rpgs? i genuinely wish weapons broke more easily in both games, because the most interesting part of the game is the first couple hours where weapons are scarce and every one you find is a godsend and you need to be crafty in how you approach combat to make best use of them. the games lose something when you reach the point where you've got so many slots (and especially once getting the master sword) that you've always got a surplus of weapons and stuff like "knocking a guy down to take his stick" stops mattering so much

i realize i'm probably more into the quote-unquote "busywork" than most, i enjoy taking a moment after combat to look at the swords on the ground and compare them against the ones in my pocket, swap out low-durability weapons for fresh ones, etc. i enjoy that management aspect and i enjoy the breathing room to focus on doing a bit of housekeeping after a big combat encounter ("breathing room" is honestly like, a core tenet of botw/totk that is what makes them such special games). but the game is so generous with weapons that you don't actually have to really worry much about that, if you don't micromanage your swords the game won't actually put you in a particularly dire situation over it, especially now that every enemy drops a storable half-a-sword scaled to your current level so even if you have nothing but a tree branch you can still do damage

and i also can't help but think like.... not every game has to be for every human on earth? if you don't like a slow contemplative open game there are plenty of nonstop action experiences you can dive into instead. people will look at a thing that they don't personally enjoy and instead of concluding "ah well it's not just for me" it's "this objectively sucks and is stupid". it feels like the video game equivalent of people looking at modern art and going "i don't get this so obviously the art is what's wrong and bad" "this is just a bunch of random squares on a canvas" "my kid could've painted this better". i think most of us online, especially on the left, would like to think of ourselves as more art literate than that, yet half of the discourse and arguments that happen in public online spaces boil down to that same "i don't like/get this and i refuse to understand it, i simply hate it based on my own gut vibes and/or what i've parroted from others"

(sorry for putting this whole rant in reply to this comment lol, i just wanted to "yes and" on the topic of "durability is good and fun actually" but inevitably i've got a lot of thoughts and feelings that spiral out from there)

hahaha yeah actually no dw i like your rant thanks for bestowing it on me. and yeah actually I didn't think about it but I totally see what you're saying, it's really too bad that there isn't more scarcity in both games. You know that island that takes away all your stuff in the first one (I haven't visited it yet in the second one so don't tell me shhhhh)? That island is a TON of people's favorite moment from the game!!! I wish there were more situations in which you have to sort of be crafty or "use what you got" rather than simply accumulating the good stuff over time to the point that you've got more black boko horns than you could ever use. Either way, the mechanic created a super cool gameplay loop that if anything deserves to be further explored, not backed-out-of

in botw you would very quickly get to a point where any combat encounter would cost you more/rarer weapons than you would get from it. you were essentially punished for engaging with a large part of the game at that point.
that's okay for those who found fights intrinsically rewarding but for me it just brought home how much i didn't. totk is a big improvement in that regard.

Let me offer a slightly depressing take on why gamers may not consider the good reasons for design choices that are not immediately and obviously fun: they assume that those design choices are made in bad faith by companies looking to exploit consumers and wring more money out of them. If you are analyzing a game with a payment structure that includes loot-type DLC, a monthly fee, or gacha, it's not a bad assumption to make! "This frustration I am feeling, this time I am spending on something other than the thing that gets the dopamine flowing, this is designed to make me feel bad so I will open my wallet!" If you begin to see games in that adversarial mindset, it's easy to look at games with frustrating elements and see any other reason for them.

Lots of good points in this post. One thing I always come back to is the idea that Gamers tend to be, broadly speaking, really bad at delayed gratification. You'll often be able to tell if a player is someone who sees downtime as wasted time holding them back from More Gaming (a perspective I don't share but often see). It's the same underlying issue as the kinds of people who will complain about a game not being clear enough about what to do (because they mashed buttons to skip the explanatory text without reading it), or the kinds of people who complain about any level of having to manage things in menus because they don't want to have to spend time on it.

this is something i think about a lot, and the same word has occurred to me. and reading this it becomes even more clear to me that it really is even kind of analogous to the sort of thing you see in a lot of spaces these days. the treatment of games a collection of content to be consumed as a part of fandom, or the desire to have more and more of the game be "the good parts" and reduce friction feelings as thoroughly as possible. and there's also often a focus on the idea that the point of decisions is always to make the choice that's the most powerful or shows you something you haven't seen before, which doesn't have quite as direct of a parallel.

i suppose some of this also arises from the kind of compulsive sense of games, though. stuff gets built around its most dedicated fans, because they're the ones who commit the most, and that then twists into refining away the parts people dislike and having to squeeze more out of the rest. i don't know if there's anything to truly be done about that in a collective sense; i think individually people really don't even notice themselves thinking those kinds of things, or it's so normalized in the crowd. but it turns into very rigid "this is right, and this is wrong" thinking that i think truly limits people's ability to understand and even enjoy games, always thinking about how to rate it next to other games or imagining they could be "having more fun right now". but i think most of my favorite games i've played in the last few years have been games where i understand fully why huge amounts of people dislike major elements, because those games almost always have ideas i've never seen before and i tend to walk away fascinated by that if not completely enamored

i've mostly resisted actually calling it "literacy" in the past because i don't want people to think i'm projecting some kind of superiority just because i like saga games or something. i won't deny i feel some snobbery when i see people i feel are especially incurious about things, but reflecting on this i realize my own literacy by these metrics is limited in its own way, and not just in the sense of genres, etc. that i've really not played very much like first and third person shooters. kind of takes me back to the scorcese interview recently where he talked about himself and kurosawa "only beginning to see the possibilities" of their art near the end of a lifetime dedicated to it. creative media are bigger spaces than we can ever know, as creators and appreciators, so there's no need to make it even harder for ourselves to explore them

So, I'm not the sort of person who really "gets" art, but I think I "get" My Summer Car. MSC is an incredibly frustrating game, with many features that are the exact opposite of fun. But I think that's why I "get" it. Because those anti-fun features create a much stronger emotional investment than if they weren't there. The car isn't just a car. It's a character that you've grown close to. It represents hours of investment, tuning, driving to town in a painfully slow tractor or less-painfully-slow van to buy parts and food. So when you hit the gas and it roars off the starting line, it feels incredible. And conversely. When you're almost to the end of a race, and you hear the gut-wrenching sound of the engine ejecting a piston, it feels like a part of you has died.

I don't want all games to be like My Summer Car, but I sure am glad I played it.

it's probably a result of wider changes in entertainment in general. a lot of things like movies and shows aim for a "just turn your brain off and enjoy it" experience (that phrase annoys the hell out of me btw) which ends up bleeding into video games. players expect to be hit with free dopamine for basic and easy tasks instead of playing an actual game and having actual experiences. sometimes things are difficult and that's what makes them worth doing

Oh, those of us who know enough are able to tell why the weapon durability is there.

It is because near every reward for engaging with the game is new weapons or the ability to hold new weapons.

The reason for this is because the game lacks other rewards and is also absolutely massive so it needs rewards for doing most things.

There are many other symptoms of this core fact, too - it's the reason enemies, weapons, and armor have ridiculous stats; the reason most enemies are humanoids carrying weapons the player can use; the reason cooking is so hilariously busted; the reason there are so many grindy crafting materials in the game.

All of these things FUCKING SUCK but there is absolutely a "good" reason they're all there. It's because the developers were unable to make meaningful rewards for the glut of repetitive game content in the oversized world.

The "art" of the game is that it's too goddamn big for its own good and the entire design collapsed under its own weight.

the thing about that JSS quote is even if it were true it'd still be such a bad argument. people don't know they want something until they get it all the damn time.
i say this as someone who thinks zelda's durability is a band-aid fix for a lack of content that creates more problems than it purports to solve