• she/they

pdx queer dev, now an Old


especially hard ones. okay, this is going to be me defending boss runbacks and death penalties in games. i realize this is madness, please hold on and let me explain

a shitty runback or death penalty for something in a game gives your brain the sometimes necessary bit of friction to step back and actually try something new instead of just endlessly banging your head against a brick wall. in smoothing off all the sharp edges of these things, even in hard games, we've actually increased the Tilt to make it too easy to keep going past having fun

yes this is coming from me seeing people saying it's good XIV didn't take leveling down from XI, and yes i am aware i am a Little broken from this. it is really hard to delevel in modern XI, but even in 75era / on horizon it's not exactly something you should be running into super often

to be honest, it doesn't even have to be that shitty of a runback/penalty. i wish xiv's gear degradation was a little bit stronger, if not going to introduce an actual penalty. margit had just enough of a little hallway that you go "ugh do i really feel like trying this again" when you're stuck, same with malaketh, same with malenia. i realize these are Nothing compared to traditional series runbacks (to the point where all of them are generally considered removed in Elden Ring) but there are tons that just spawn you right outside the fog wall again.

but let's contrast to AC6. which, objectively, is one of the best games of all time. balteus is a "hop right back in" just like almost every other fight from hell. while this is a fantastic choice in, again, the best game ever made, i do not think that a single one of my early play sessions with it didn't involve me going about 30 minutes past "i am learning this fight" and straight into "your reflexes are too shot to continue tonight, sleep on it"

or compare to every group i've ever progged ex or savage with. not tons, i'll admit. but there has always been a point, somewhere around the first food wear, that the pulls just go Bad. someone mistakes the current pull for the last one. someone instantly pulls the second the respawn happens and it means another instant death and just a little bit more psychic damage on everyone. maybe i'm asking for duty timers to be removed in favor of a number of continues, with a pull timer -- maybe that's all the additional friction duties in 14 need.

if there's one thing code vein actually did really well, it's giving you an option that requires going back to your base to recover half your missing souls. this is beautiful. it forces you to disengage, but then doesn't penalize you any further for doing it.

a good death penalty or runback should be a way for the game to let you know that even if you're at peak form, you need to change gears for a moment. strategize. stretch. get a drink of water. we used to get some of this from load times that have basically evaporated since nvme took over consoles, and that's after disk loading speeds, which was after things just being slow because the rest of the hardware was. i dunno.


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in reply to @aune's post:

This is making me think of the hot springs in La Mulana that are back at the town and like 3 screens to the left, so if you wanna heal you have to teleport away from your current zone, walk left 4 screens, wait for the health bar to fill up, then teleport back to the zone and work your way back to where you were. It's an effective brain break for thinking about the game's puzzles while you go, or to suggest that you try another area for a while.

Which, funnily enough, is why I started playing the game in the first place—a friend started it and complained about the hot springs being needlessly far and the only way to heal on demand, and after wondering if it was intentional friction to encourage being more cautious without just fully killing you, I decided to try it myself and see how it felt. And, well, I was hooked, of course.

that is a perfect example!!! hearing about intentional friction like That in games actually interests me and adds another point to the "i really gotta play La Mulana at some point" column

I do think you have a point here - modern games tend to have all the rough edges so thoroughly sanded down that they become forgettable. Like in FFXIV, some of the early dungeons are janky and tedious, but I'm not likely to forget to kill the guy on the pressure plate in Qarn. But more recent dungeons are streamlined to the point that they all kinda blend together, going down with the consistency and memorability of applesauce.

There's definitely a balance, though. Hollow Knight strikes it pretty well in most respects, but the last pantheon boss-rush thing, the one with Absolute Radiance at the end, nearly made me quit. I wasn't likely to die until like, Grey Prince Zote, which is I think the 38th boss out of 42ish, which made every attempt a huge tedious timesink. I'd imagine a lot of people simply bounced off and forgot about the whole thing.

Also, tangentially related, you got me thinking about what this sort of runback penalty would look like in a precision platformer a la Super Meat Boy/Celeste/kaizo Mario - it'd break them entirely, you'd have to completely rework the difficulty progression and it would kill any incentive to try wacky bullshit or explore - and that got me thinking about what a precision platformer built with that in mind would even look like. Anyway, that's how I ended up inventing Getting Over It with Bennett Foddy from first principles.

yeah! qarn is super memorable. I really appreciate how the dungeon reworks for early ones have actually not smoothed them out too much, and they've also introduced fight marker language a lot sooner.

i do think they maybe removed a bit too much jank from MSQ roulette but that's only because i miss group elevators, it's still good

boss rushes are a really interesting point! i think they're enough friction, on their own. probably too much, when you have 40+ bosses. i think there's a good elastic fix of some sort that you can figure out, like, after X runs you don't need to clear the first Y anymore. i dunno, i like Challenges like that existing, even if I do normally decide they aren't for me anymore