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posts from @aune tagged #programming

also: #software development, #coding

meow-d
@meow-d

apparently the whole ui changing discourse is mainly about the new discord update. i knew discord updated but i never put two and two together, probably because, i, urm, liked the update. i find it puzzling that people are having such vitriolic hatred for the change.

actually, i probably shouldn't have said that, because i'm pretty sure 90% of people are just slightly annoyed. but it sure feels like that after seeing an entire reddit thread where everyone unanimously hated it, like it's so outrageous that the entire internet united against it. and i'm the only one who doesn't understand.

i don't know how to feel about this. i like new update and i'm perfectly happy to spend some time getting used to it. but most people are reasonably unhappy to be forced to change. should we never ever change? should we make everything customizable and let technical debt accumulate? should we disregard users' feelings and force everyone to change? what are we supposed to do?


Osmose
@Osmose

what are we supposed to do?

This is actually an interesting question because some people have specific criticism and ideas that, if they were followed, would make the changes good in their eyes. So they're okay with change, just not this specific change.

Some folks think change itself is the issue, or at least the speed and magnitude. They perhaps want change to only happen slowly and in pieces.

Of course a lot of folks are expressing frustration with the change without offering an alternative. Maybe they don't want anything to have changed in the first place? I often wonder what these people would think if they were asked how to handle the problems a redesign was trying to solve; will they suggest different changes, or will they reject the problems as not being problems in the first place?

From a professional software dev view there is already an industry-standard answer: Listen to feedback, implement changes you agree with (if there are any), and otherwise just let people express their frustration and take any hit to usage until the heat dies down. It is generally viewed as counterproductive to respond too quickly to large spikes in negative feedback unless either the business is threatened by it or it persists well past when most people have cooled off and adjusted.

Specifically, it's not counterproductive because users are always wrong—they are often working off incomplete information, but so are you, and sometimes their instincts are spot on—but because their immediate feedback is data tainted by frustration. The adjustment period to a redesign has a time limit, and if you intend to be around for a long time, what you want to base your decisions on is how users that are used to the redesign use the app, not users who are still pissed off and fumbling for the right buttons.

You can get this data ahead of time with A/B testing, although bad testing practices can make this data as bad or worse than immediate feedback.

While it's standard in the industry, it's not without its critics. Some people believe customization is vital to usability and redesigns should preserve old options as much as is feasible. Others think that part of what makes open source ethical is that users who don't want the redesign can fork the project, and market forces will decide the rest. These are compelling from a user perspective, but less so from a for-profit (even non-VC-backed) perspective due to increased maintenance effort and risk of being replaced. It's rare for multiple forks of complex software to thrive in the long term.

Some also think designers and devs just aren't listening to users enough and the fix is to simply respond to users more. There's a spectrum of how much or how little you heed and respond to user feedback, although I do think it's rare for a company to listen to user feedback in opposition to its own designers. Feedback isn't a vote, it's a dialog. You're trying to convince the business to do something, whether you do it through reasoning or through threats.

Ultimately it's impossible to make everyone happy, so you just need to explicitly decide: What do I care the most about? Sentiment on social media in the short term? In the long term? Existing users? New users? Usage hours? Signups? Revenue per user?

When you don't frame it like that you'll end up trying to care about all of them at once, which is what leaves you thinking that there's no winning choice.


aune
@aune

i feel like one thing that makes all of this worse is when you have apps like it, like slack, that roll things out.... how they do. it's one thing when websites do it, but now even the shit you install can't be "trusted"

great, you disabled updates? too bad! here's an updated blob of javascript we pulled down. doesn't matter what you were trying to do. suddenly everything's different

one of the reasons people get so mad at windows update is that they didn't get much say in when the update went off. what's that, you had a meeting right as you got up? too bad, maybe your meeting shouldn't have been on patch tuesday, enjoy being 30 minutes late because of a forced restart and installation

there's no indication anymore. no "hey, big update coming" inside of the application. no version numbers that are visible to anyone that mean anything. hell, the idea of an LTS channel is practically gone. you basically cannot trust that any time you go to use any application that you will be able to do the task you intended without having to relearn the entire damn thing.



QuestForTori
@QuestForTori

I still think it's really important that federated media networks exist because:

  1. It's way harder for a single bad actor (i.e CEO) to fuck everything up in the name of profit chasing
  2. They're useful for weaning people off of the mono-platform hell that the modern internet has been forced into and reminding people how websites used to work and still SHOULD work
  3. Open standards for internet communication can last for ages even with moderate adoption. No one can "take down" the concept of IRC or E-Mail, even if huge mono-platforms have done their best to try and get everyone on a single service for them. You're still usually able to take your data and set up elsewhere using the same backend service, and that's a critical difference. Sure it really sucks when your Masto instance goes under, but it's a hell of a lot easier than losing a proprietary site
  4. Federation makes it much easier to archive content when much of it is already stored across multiple independent servers run by different maintainers

The whole debacle of Reddit's execs burning down the website recently made me think about this more since the same network of micro-communities could be achieved just by a bunch of individual forums networked together with a single-sign-on tying them together. like how forums worked in the 90s and 2000s, just with the option to network them together and not having to make a new account for every community.



QuestForTori
@QuestForTori

I think there are some things that can be done to make federated networks more resilient to individual nodes dropping out, like having each node naturally keep a partial duplicate of some other nodes on the network per the admin's consent, thus allowing for possible failover instances during downtime, etc.

But I think one of the fundamental changes that needs to happen to the internet as a whole is to demystify web hosting and site creation to the modern web user. Services like Wix or Linode kinda help with this, but at the end of the day, they're still proprietary services for a single host. We need a host-agnostic tool with user-friendly UX that can guide a user through the process of buying a domain and/or remote server instance, selecting your website you want to host, or allowing you to select from several open-source server apps that you want to host from an app store-like interface.

We also need better open tools for making websites to go along with that which don't either throw the user into the deep end of HTML coding or lock down so much that you can't make anything other than a bland web-modernist-sludge page.

Once hosting a game server, personal site, or social media node is simple enough for even the slightly-technically-inclined person to do with a platform-agnostic tool, I think people will start seeing webhosting as a lot less daunting.


lifning
@lifning

the potential is there. like, pre-highschool kids who are the slightest bit "good with computers" are out there setting up minecraft servers for their friends.

many computer people, especially webapp developers, love to complicate things and then turn around and say "o, woe! this system is far too difficult and complex for unskilled hands! pray give me the controller, so that i may control it for you." when we need them to say "òwó this system is too difficult and complex! better make it understandable and reasonable to set up so i'm actually empowering people with my work instead of perpetuating the cycle of people-farming"


xkeeper
@xkeeper
Sorry! This post has been deleted by its original author.

aune
@aune

yeah.

i would go so far as to say that containerization and forced microservices are actually a fucking plague on our industry at large (don't get me fucking started), but christ, the whole thing is a mess.

no one fixed ftp or sftp clients or made any of that easier because everything moved to proprietary bullshit.

you know, everything except shit people need to actually do jobs. that stuff? it's still usually the same as it has always been. sftp is still a key way to share big files b2b. and it still sucks. i mean. it's fine, like, filezilla is fine. it's just not glamorous. you need to look at things like urls and port numbers, and those things scare people for some reason.

i don't quite understand how we (the industry) fucked up so hard with node. like. we took "the browser and server speak the same language" and then made it impossible to use that promise with actual web hosting anywhere. it's not like php didn't have all these functions and modules and stuff already.