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Campster
@Campster

So this video feels pretty deeply naive. I like Adam Conover, but this kind of sucks.


Video-Game-King
@Video-Game-King

There was and always will be an inherent tension to social media. What made Twitter valuable to its users - whether that's (the feeling of) speaking truth to power, engaging in whatever weird trends defined the culture, or promoting your wares as what is essentially a small business - has zero overlap with what made Twitter valuable to the people running and funding it: namely, the ability to extract so much information from its users which the owners could sell to online advertisers. There is simply no way the Twitters and Facebooks of the world would have come into existence without that facet of their business model. Hence, a publicly funded Twitter faces two options: either it preserves this aspect of the business model, which, why, or it gets rid of it and finds some other way to fund hosting and maintaining the site. As far as privately owned platforms go, the trend appears to be subscription services, and I have my thoughts on that. However, I imagine the publicly owned version would just use a subscription fee to supplement government funding, if it chooses to have a subscription fee at all.

But all this is really dancing around the much larger question facing Twitter: is the site worth preserving at all? What about it warrants keeping it around not just as a historical artifact, but as a service people actively use? The social good it serves? Best case scenario, that serves as a vent for the frustrations our increasingly undemocratic culture breeds in all of us: we might not be able to enact meaningful social change ourselves or through our elected representatives, but at least we can yell at and dunk on the powers that be in the hopes that they grow as frustrated as we are and acquiesce. And if that comment is any indication, the culture is hardly worth preserving either. Twitter isn't just defined by context collapse and incredible degrees of toxicity; it actively encourages them to habituate users into using the site more often. Admittedly, much of that comes down to a lack of decent moderation, or an inability to set a site-wide set of norms dictating what is and isn't appropriate behavior - but I don't see much public ownership of the site could do to change that.

Collectively speaking, our lives will begin to improve only once we no longer treat something like Twitter as a necessity within it.


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in reply to @Campster's post:

Yeah, I originally referenced the stats in an earlier version of the post after looking it up - circa 2020 the monthly unique user count for Twitter was around 400 million users. The average unique monthly user count for Facebook? 2.91 billion.

Yeah, I mean, that sounds like a lot of Adam Conover arguments, where I'm with him a lot of the way, but come to completely different conclusions. Twitter was very good, for a long time! But it also always had problems that wouldn't be more tractable if it were a publicly owned service.

Also lmao yeah the whole idea of nationalizing it now, when it's in the private hands of a petty asshole who already ruined it and chased of a large portion of the userbase, is laughable, to put it mildly.

these definitely match up with all the critiques we've ever heard of conover. lots of good when it's not discussing like, big, structural things - his whole show "the g word" was completely wrapped up in that specific problem of being unable to parse a world "truly better" than one incrementally improved from the current state of things.

"Elon Musk is ruining/has ruined Twitter as a platform, but we can't leave Twitter because that's where the audience is so there's nothing to do but "
=== >
"Elon Musk is ruining/has ruined Twitter as a platform, but we can't leave Twitter because that's where my audience is so there's nothing to do but"

at this point i can't take anyone's opinion on twitter seriously if they're still actively using twitter. i don't mean to be crass but it really does feel like the reasoning of an abused spouse or an addict. everyone has been immersed in this status quo for so long that they don't even see how deranged and toxic the idea of a single everything site for the entire world to use simultaneously is anymore

Not to mention, wouldn't a nationalized, US government-run Twitter or facebook be under a much stricter interpretation of first amendment rules than any private version? I mean, IIRC there was a case not too long ago that determined that government accounts and pages aren't even allowed to block or mute people because they're obligated to be accessible to their constituents.

Thing is most forms of online abuse and hate speech aren't strictly illegal, so i feel like the people calling for these platforms to become gov't entities are in for something much worse than anything they could've imagined, at least for pre-Elon twitter.

i find that this sort of discussion, framed in your final 3 choices, is extremely common in left-ish? progressive? media - podcasts, youtube videos, pop nonfic books, whatever. it drives me insane. the whole work is about the status quo and option 1, then a smile towards the bright future of the "have your cake and eat it too" option 2 in the closing lines/chapters (with no exploration of how that might be possible), and completely ignore option 3, the one that requires changes to how things are done.

I have thought a tooon about this stuff and yeah I think any form of nationalization is not a serious proposal, and 99.9% of the people offering it would back away from it at the trivial thought experiment of a Trump 2024 win - hmm, that guy, in charge of twitter's festering not-quite-dead-yet carcass? Yeah, no.

What I do think would work is a carefully set up internationally accountable nonprofit, in the mold of Wikipedia. Which is not to say that wikipedia doesn't have tons of cultural issues that most of its volunteer editors could tell you all about, but WP is at least as socially important (if not as powerful, in the various ways twitter was acknowledged to be powerful back in its heyday) as twitter and it has managed to keep its head above water in an incredibly turbulent sea of competing geopolitical-cultural forces.

The funny thing is that in a lot of respects (but "total expenses" probably not being one of them), a non-shit version of twitter should have lower overhead than wikipedia. You could basically roll back all the terrible bullshit Musk did to it and be within spitting distance of a feature complete version you could call "beta" and missing some moderation features. Twitter as a piece of software could basically be "finished" and do just about everything its users want it to do if it didn't have to turn a profit - all the "likes are now florps, timeline goes sideways" bullshit was the product of the Dorsey administration's rudderless R&D churn. The ongoing costs of content moderation and hosting would be the main thing a Twitter Foundation would need to put out the hat for during fundraising season. And I think it'd probably do fine for revenue if the entity asking for money was more like WP or NPR than Musk's incredibly inept grift.

Everything that would be fraught and politicized about a nonprofit (no really, actually nonprofit not all this neolib market-focused bullshit) Twitter is already fraught and politicized about Wikipedia (eg what's on Xi Jinping's page and who gets to write it). You would need to build the team very carefully and monitor its ideology, and it would be under constant attack from undemocratic forces of every stripe, but again this is true of multiple currently existing entities.

My best case scenario for twitter's epilogue after Musk finishes defiling it and sells off its corpse would be converting it into this sort of entity. I don't have much confidence that'll happen but it's what should happen, dammit.

The weird thing about this video is that he talks about the history of governmental intervention of the media...but the U.S. government really hasn't done anything analogous to his solution. They've broken up monopolies, nationalized the airwaves, and created public broadcasters, but there's not really a precedent for nationalizing an existing telecommunications or media company, as far as I know. I feel like breaking up Twitter and Facebook into multiple companies that compete and are required to interoperate would be the action that has the most historical parallels. I'm not sure it's a good idea, but it at least has more promise than nationalizing Twitter.

In fairness, I guess Conover hints at creating a new publicly funded social network, but he doesn't really elaborate on it, and it contradicts with his "Twitter is essential" argument.

I watched it when it was new and my overall feeling was that it had the aura of someone making excuses for something he wasn't going to stop doing. He needed to keep using twitter so he needed to make a case for why using twitter is the best way to fix twitter. Consider the dismissal of using Mastodon, as a 'thing for nerds,' which

like

you're Adam Conover.