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ida “https://deerz.one/” deerz @idadeerz

ida “https://deerz.one/” deerz @idadeerz12/3/2023, 9:21 PM

so, on the topic of plagiarism

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h7tuWDyHpjM

my video "Celeste, Germinal, & Videogame Plagiarism" is now back up on YouTube!

this is a short video essay i wrote and produced in 2022 on the topic of an upcoming indie game called Germinal, which appeared to be copying Celeste down to the very pixel in some cases. the video initially did very well and i never stopped standing behind it, but eventually the developers of Germinal found out and started acting like poor little meow meows in the comments, and i started receiving heaps of what i found to be disingenuous comments that totally missed the points i was trying to make. i ended up taking the video down because this got to me and i didn't feel like replying to every single comment individually.

considering the strongest contender for YouTube video of the year is now all about how plagiarism is plagiarism and how changing some details so it doesn't count as plagiarism is still plagiarism, i feel confident in putting this video back online. those are the aspects people completely omitted when they went and criticized my video.

you're criticizing this game for having three savegame slots. can videogames not have three savegame slots anymore?? what's next, every game with a jump is plagiarising Mario?

like... that's not the point i was trying to get across? this would never be a weird thing on its own. but when you're also copying screen transitions and wipes and sprite animations down to the fucking pixel, doesn't that make something as basic as a few similarly shaped UI elements seem highly suspicious too? i would have never thought anything about that mundane level of plagiarism without seeing the blatant displays of it elsewhere in the game.

the whole point of this video was to make a distinction between derivativeness and actual plagiarism. the Super Mario Bros example was already directly mentioned in the video; ofcourse not every 2d platformer is a Mario ripoff, if anything it's just derivative, and that is a good thing. games can exist that are derivative, that are inspired by other people's design choices, without copying 300 of those design choices at once. at that point, you are committing plagiarism while using "i was just inspired by Celeste's art style" as an excuse.

they're clearly trying to do their own thing, it's different enough because there's no dash mechanic and it's a hover mechanic

would it not seem more logical that they just gave the player a poorly implemented mechanic as an alternative to ripping off the dash, just to make it appear less like plagiarism? the intent is obviously still the same, but they're trying to shield themselves from being a total ripoff by changing things up.

but as we've now all seen, changing things up slightly so people won't notice the difference does not mean it's not plagiarism. if plagiarism worked like that, then literally none of the people discussed in the hbomb video would have committed plagiarism. if plagiarism worked like that, all their "based on" "inspired by" "with the help of" "[pastebin full of sources]" excuses would hold up; and we all know very well that they clearly do not hold up, and that their works still cause harm to others through plagiarism regardless.

Germinal went so far in its similarities at the time that some people even argued they might have been stealing code from Celeste to achieve the same results. that's how far this goes. you don't end up at such a level of similarity if you're just being inspired, if you're just being derivative and coming up with new ideas of your own. you only end up there if you're engaging in plagiarism.

anyways, i think their practices still deserve to be called out, i think this video deserves to be publicly available again. hopefully people can now have a better, more mature discussion about this topic.

#celeste #celestegame #germinal #oh good that tag has not been used on here yet #videogames #plagiarism #hbomberguy

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in reply to @idadeerz's post:

three genders in a wenchcoat @akhra12/4/2023, 5:31 AM

This is not a topic I recall seeing takes about from you before, and I'm tempted to go back and look for some because clearly you have good takes!

(Also kinda wondering now if I was too nice in my Steam review of ~~The Hades We Have At Home~~ Death Must Die...)

catastrophically yearning transfem-like lanky kong @lankyfromnowonbutprobablynot12/4/2023, 9:39 PM

I watched your video, and I'm not sure what to think about this. I don't really understand making a game almost exactly like an existing popular game, with a twist, from a creative perspective. From a business perspective, it might make sense. Game development/marketing is INCREDIBLY competitive from what I've seen. It shouldn't have to be this way, of course. My hope is that they want to make more original games, but needed to get something off the ground before they could pursue something more ambitious. It doesn't look like the game has been very successful though. I also do not think EXOK is hurting for more exposure, money, or other resources. It also doesn't appear to be a low-effort reskin/clone kind of thing. It's not a cash grab using stolen assets on a mobile store that bears no other resemblance to the original game mechanically. I do think there's a conversation to be had here, but I think it's probably more nuanced than "this game is bad and the developers shouldn't have made it". Actually kind of interested in checking this out now, out of some form of curiosity.

Maybe this is too tangential, but I'm also reminded of fangames and romhacks. I think those scenes can produce some really cool stuff, and people don't typically hold those games to a legal standard, even if the creators are profiting from them in the form of donations, etc.

Third thing: The mid-air ability refresher pickup things have been around since 2004 at the latest, in Maddy Thorson's own freeware title "Jumper". They also feature prominently in her 2007 metroidvania "An Untitled Story", as well as in freeware and flash games made by other developers. Secret fourth thing: Maddy herself is known for creating a few romhacks, though the ones she lists on her site were released starting in 2015.

ida “https://deerz.one/” deerz @idadeerz12/4/2023, 9:57 PM

I do think there's a conversation to be had here, but I think it's probably more nuanced than "this game is bad and the developers shouldn't have made it".

yeah, i agree. i think one reason why the video got so much backlash is that i wasn't particularly nuanced at all. if i made it again, i would do that differently. being hostile about the subject, while i certainly thought it was well deserved, just made people want to defend the developers and check them out, which was unintentional.

It also doesn't appear to be a low-effort reskin/clone kind of thing. It's not a cash grab using stolen assets on a mobile store that bears no other resemblance to the original game mechanically.

while you're right that it's not a mobile store cashgrab like that other game i briefly featured in the video, i do still think it's relatively low-effort. that mobile Celeste ripoff is featured in the video specifically because it's the most well known example of Celeste being plagiarised; not because Germinal is similar in scope to it. i do think that if you are using Celeste as a template to draw all your art and program all your mechanics onto, that is extremely low-effort. you don't have to worry as much about game design if you're practically just rewriting all the game design someone else did, right?

I'm also reminded of fangames and romhacks.

and Germinal very specifically is neither of these. if it was explicitly a fangame, i would be much more welcoming of it. if it was a Celeste mod, i would love it too; a custom mod with custom characters and graphics that builds upon Celeste as an engine? that's awesome! many people in the comments have suggested that it's so similar that it could as well have been a mod.

but it's not a mod. if it was a mod, it would just use Celeste's assets directly, instead of featuring assets that are, quite literally, ripped off from Celeste. the intent is completely different, and that is why i think it is much less deserving of respect than if it were just a mod or even a fangame that doesn't pretend it's original outside of its inspirations.

you don't arrive at having screen transitions that have the exact same timings and movements and sizes as those of Celeste if you're merely inspired by it.

The mid-air ability refresher pickup things have been around since 2004 at the latest, in Maddy Thorson's own freeware title "Jumper". They also feature prominently in her 2007 metroidvania "An Untitled Story", as well as in freeware and flash games made by other developers.

and this is exactly the point so many people previously made in the comments that got me to take the video down. just reusing a handful of features from Celeste would not be weird on its own. this really wouldn't be weird on its own. i'm sure plenty of other games do this too besides just Maddy's other stuff. but when they've copied so many other things that are much more detailed, the fact that even something as mundane as the refill pickups is the same becomes extremely suspicious.