computers are bad, and so was this website


fluffy
@fluffy

webp is a good format that's saddled with lousy adoption. Back in the day people avoided png because of the same problem. Things will get better if you let them.


twi
@twi

webp is a good format that's saddled with lousy adoption

i've been saying this and probably will be forever. so many people in the comments on this one complaining about not being able to use it for stuff and i have to resist the temptation to tell them to just..... get ffmpeg. it's not out of the question that some of these people even already have it in their path variable somewhere. it is not remotely difficult to use as long as you don't wanna customize the conversion settings, but i know that people are now and will forever remain allergic to the command line. no shade for that, there's plenty of things i avoid using because i just don't fuckin wanna. but i had many of the same annoyances for a long time and realizing i had access to a one-liner that you can literally do in the windows file explorer address bar without so much as opening a terminal window (though i usually do anyway just for tab-complete my beloved) just completely evaporated them. for the terminal-averse, one could probably devise a registry key to give the context menu an option to handle the conversion.....

or, if you're downloading it to edit, just hit "copy image" the same way you'd do with an image of literally any other format besides an animated gif. that's what you do, right, and then paste it into your image editor of choice, right? the majority of editors i use have a function upon making a new canvas to use the dimensions of the image in the clipboard, and might even paste the image right in for you. i try to avoid saving stuff that i don't actually intend to use again whenever possible, and it is annoying when my hand is forced (one day this will stop being a thing that annoys me about cohost)

i dunno about adoption ever getting much better than it is now especially since i'm not old enough to remember how true this ever was about pngs but it baffles me that i never see this ire directed toward apng, which i think is also neat, but has all the same issues at least as badly. but personally i dunno i don't blame, like, the MKV format for example for vegas pro still not supporting it? that seems like it would be daft of me


blorgblorgblorg
@blorgblorgblorg

genuinely what is good about webp? it just seems to be a container you can put lossless or lossy in? what's the appeal, why should i switch

your mkv example is weird to me because mkv offers some useful extra shit to me the user over mp4 in how it can embed multiple tracks including subtitles in one file. what does webp offer me the user except inconvenience? i have ffmpeg and imagemagick in my windows path variable so i can use them in any folder but why should i have to, what purpose does webp serve? i never hear that even from its defenders, and let me tell you, "just go to slight extra effort because fandom wikis autoconvert all uploaded images to this new format" is not a compelling pitch to me in the absence of any information on why anyone would convert to webp


blorgblorgblorg
@blorgblorgblorg

this is also why recent smartphones taking camera pics in HEIC weirds me out. like oh yeah it's like negligibly smaller in size? motherfucker any phone recent enough to be taking pics in HEIC has 64 gigs of internal memory bare-ass minimum, how the fuck can anyone on earth fill that up with JPEGs. i'd struggle to fill that with PNGs.


blorgblorgblorg
@blorgblorgblorg

okay actually i guess i'd glossed over "back in the day people avoided png because of the same problem" which is even more ludicrous because back in the day I desperately wanted PNG to get wider support because it served a purpose in offering nicer quality than JPEGs in a SIGNIFICANTLY smaller size than BMP and with transparency. what features does webp offer????????? anyone????


wildweasel
@wildweasel

Literally the only "adoption" problem PNG ever had back in the day was that Internet Explorer, while it displayed them, would display ones with alpha-translucency over an ugly 50% grey background no matter what. Every graphics program I ever used, circa 2000, supported it just fine. WebP is a format that exists because Google invented it, that offers no noticeable benefits over PNG, and punishes a website's page rank for not using it.

Learning that Fandom wikis auto-convert images to WebP format is just one of several shitty reasons why they get such high priority in search ranks and that the fan-run wikis get penalized so hard.


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in reply to @whatnames's post:

The best i was able to do without installing addons, was to go into about:config in firefox and put "*/*;q=0.8,image.webp;q=0.0" as the value for key "image.http.accept".

It resulted in FF telling the sites that it doesn't like getting webp formatted images. It won't work everywhere, but for sites with content negotiation (like wikia and its images) i get more conventional formats now.

Funny, just yesterday on a certain other site I saw a thread of people lamenting how it wasn't in wider use. I'm a layman so I don't know anything either way but the small file-size seemed cool?

It's nice if you run a website and don't want to pay extra for transfer, especially with huge traffic and a lot of images served (short: smol size good). But as a person who wants to save the image from such site and use it for anything (like a quick dumb meme done in mspaint, or even use it as your desktop wallpaper) you're out of luck because the program you use most probably can't open it (short: new unsupported format bad).

Ok thanks, this is more or less the argument I've seen against it. Fair enough. I have run into it once or twice but I don't have the Gift of Memes which is probably why it hasn't bothered me to much. Now conversely, in the same thread I saw people saying that the webp format dates back to like 2001 and it just didn't ever see that much uptake. Would it be impossible now that it's getting popular for it to soon be more widely supported? Or is there something inherent to the format? Sorry for all the questions!

Main reason to look for new (or old but not widely known) image formats with stronger, lossless compression, has been web's shift to mobile (less reliable connections, having to care for transfer limits on client side). If not for that, it would probably still be an obscure format known only to a specific circle of geeks.

Big problem for wide support is range of devices and setups in the world. There's no quick switch to rollout webp everywhere all at once, unless some big enough player forces others to change their priorities - like Google did its huge part for widespread https use for all websites, or when Apple basically killed off flash player on web by completely dropping the support on iPhones. For image formats, there's seemingly no easy way to do such huge shift, since webp is not going to replace png/jpeg/gif (just coexist with them), so there's nothing that could be sacrificed to force everyone to move to new formats.

JFIF is the technical term for the file format, but for whatever reason they went with the .jpg/.jpeg file extension back in the day. The real issue there is that things care about the file extension (which is for humans) rather than the file contents (which is for computers).

Me too. I use a recent enough Linux Mint (20.2), and webp doesn't generate thumbnails in the file browser and the default app to open them is the web browser, not the image viewer.
There's zero adoption. But worst of all is the name. WEBP is such a joyless, generic name... Why would I want all my images to be named after the web?? Is the web taking credit for images now? and four letters too, which is -1 points right away.
It might be a slightly better format (Who knows?), but is a small improvement worth this utter lack of appeal?

in reply to @twi's post:

It's about time we all admitted that approximately everything after HTML4 and the 64-color animated gif was a colossal mistake we've simply been compounding ever since

in reply to @blorgblorgblorg's post:

“Negligibly smaller” is wrong—they’re frequently twice as small, if you don’t care about that it’s probably because you have good internet! But lots of people still don’t and especially mobile connections. It’s objectively a good format for the web! You should be mad that people making desktop applications are still doing a terrible job supporting it.

JPEG XL is dramatically better than webp (which is really only good because most other image codecs are 25+ years old and we’ve learned a lot in that time) and I’m very worried that it’s going to get trashed the same way.

you conflated two different things i said here! i had literally no idea that lossy webp was any smaller than jpeg, i was being derisive about file size specifically in the context of huge high-res phone camera pics in HEIC. the webp part i was literally asking what it offered me as a user!

Even on smartphones with high-resolution sensors HEIC is better. In a simple still-life shot of a building shot with my 12MP iPhone camera the HEIC image was 2.5MB and the JPEG of the same scene was 3.8MB.

Now sure, that's just a single photo, but consider that people use their phones as their only camera and quickly fill them up. I sure have on my phone, many times over. A 1MB savings (roughly, depends on the contents of the photo) per shot REALLY adds up when you're dealing with thousands of photos.

If modern day website-havers are concerned about people's internet connections then maybe instead of worring about png filesize, they could do something like serve html pages instead of 200mb javascript webapps.

in reply to @blorgblorgblorg's post:

Ok I understand what you're saying here but so many of my idiot teenage students have to delete shit EVERY YEAR so that I can make them download the mandatory apps they need to turn in their schoolwork (Like Teams or Outlook) and they always have 70,000 saved snapchat jpegs or videos or fucking whatever it BAFFLES MY MIND.

in reply to @blorgblorgblorg's post:

My understanding is:

  • webp can be lossy OR lossless
  • smaller file size saves bandwidth and storage space, which might not be huge to you but adds up for sites paying hosting costs to serve millions of images, and is a big deal for people with slow internet loading a page with lots of images
  • supports partial alpha transparency AND animation at the same time, something GIF can't do