Hi, I'm a game dev interested in all sorts of action games but primarily shmups and beat 'em ups right now.

Working on Armed Decobot, beat 'em up/shmup hybrid atm. Was the game designer on Gunvein & Mechanical Star Astra (on hold).

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Developers tend to like speedruns & speedrunners, and have slowly started building their games with speedruns in mind to some extent. While this has some benefits, I also think this can be corrosive for the high level play of games. What devs should ask is : what sorta gameplay styles & mechanics do speedrunners prefer?

It seems both obvious and weird to think about. Obviously they prefer speed, so in theory their preferences should simply be any given game's rules + a self imposed goal of going fast. Their playstyle should be a natural extension of a game's rules given that simple goal.

And yet that's not exactly true. Any given run will follow that formula, but runs don't have enough room to show player preference, because they're about optimization so the game's internal logic takes over. The thing that actually shows speedrunner preference is what happens outside of runs. Which modes the speedrunners play, which characters/weapons they pick, which categories they tend to create & populate, what gets them the most excited during runs, which types of games they gravitate towards, what kind of changes they advocate for or against in patches.

In my experience (as usual too lazy to find examples 😎 so assume I'm full of shit & verify/debunk it yourself) speedrunners care about a small handful of things. They care about a sense of forward momentum so they will tend to prefer movement tech over combat tech which tends to keep you more stationary. They tend to like big flashy (and/or technical, stuff that makes them feel clever) time saving techniques over more granular hard-to-notice stuff. They like "out of bounds aesthetics" - anything that strays away from looking and feeling like normal play. They generally aren't that excited by anything really continuous & fuzzy like tiny micro optimizations in physics games or combat optimization until they are settled into a game.

Generally they won't care about modes that better represent a game's internal logic. For example Bayonetta's campaign is full of combat skips and is heavily reliant on movement tech, and it's played on normal (or easy even?). Angel Slayer, on the other hand, seems like it would be an absolute gift for speedrunners because it better represents Bayo's core gameplay which is combat, while allowing them to still make speed a #1 priority. And yet it's sitting there, unoptimized. To me this also explains the surprising lack of overlap between racing game players & speedrunners - the two are connected but not to the level you'd think. It's also why speedrunners don't really like patches that fix skips, even though this often creates far more opportunity for demanding, granular optimization in the parts that can no longer be skipped.

If you're building games around speedrunners, you will pigeonhole yourself into creating a much more limited playstyle than it might initially seem. Not to mention, speedrunners will generally deal with whatever the fuck as long as they like the game overall - this is the same group that will play slot machines in Mario Kart or Goldeneye after all.


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in reply to @boghog's post:

was thinking a dialectic with this recently that stemmed out of a joke I had with some friends - oot is one of the most interesting routing games on the planet if you're one of 20 people who plans or runs MST or 100% at a high level, and if you're not them it's just a fucking zelda game

I disagree a bit on speedrunners disliking small optimizations: I remember looking at sunshine IL tutorials back in the day and they'd teach you a full run at different levels of difficulty, with each successive run adding more and more nuanced movement into the fold. I think a lot of top runners pride themselves on learning more and more small optimizations over time and mastering a movement system. what I do think is true here is that the bits of the culture that filter out of the scene are the big skips, and the people who absorb speedrunning through that (devs and casual fans alike) will be prone to seeing that as the draw when it gets applied a speedrun-oriented indie.

the part about disrupting the game's conceit I totally agree on though. was thinking of this recently with deus ex, where I had written recently about the pros and cons of its resource management and then watched some speedruns where they throw all that out the window by duplicating items and amplifying the effects of augments with glitches.

The precision point I'm iffy on, I guess what I wanna say is that players will gravitate towards big flashy stuff, and then once they start playing they will care a lot about micro-optimizations. I've heard & spoken to speedrunners who said that stuff like racing games without skips are boring for example. Even if, when you looked at the precision requirements, they are the same or higher as in games with huge flashy skips. I think there's just a general love for big all-or-nothing points within a run, especially if they got those OOB A e S T h E t I c S

I do wonder though, if they were in charge of patching a (fairly short) game and fix a lot of the more all-or-nothing skips so they could preserve the little details on the main path, would they even consider it? I guess it depends how bad the skips are, but still, I think there's gonna be resistance.

They better not sabotage Penny's chances of getting patched is what I'm saying 😠😠😠

Some of the most boring speedruns ever witnessed is Devil May Cry 1's cause of broken economy of the game. Tldr, the whole speedrunning strategy is based around crossing the miniscule money threshold until you can nuke every mandatory encounter with holy waters. There are attempts to mitigate this with no items category, but it is very niche and Any % Normal is still the most competitive/dominant speedrunning category, which is a complete bore to watch.

Char action games are especially bizarre in this regard because it seems like nobody really cares much about optimizing the whole central point of the games - the combat. I really don't know why runners even run these games, surely there's better choices out there for movement tech and item routing

That is definitely true, the case is that they simply like these games and/or there is hard time competing anywhere else. Char action games are niche, especially speedrunning them, so some bound to fill that space and commit even if it's boring. WaifuRuns is the biggest DMC speedrunner and he is frequently very open in his opinion that DMC 1/3 are best action games out there.

Also about optimizing the combat: most char action games are already solved games, the optimization comes down to just increasing DPS with very well known means: by canceling techniques, spamming already high DPS moves or abusing glitches, with quick kill options there is hardly room for optimization anymore. DMC 1 has slash canceling and DMC 3 has guard canceling that essentially have same purpose: indefinitely hack the enemy with the basic sword. MGRR has blade mode canceling combined with high dps of the move sky high.

I agree, games built for speedrunning are usually designed superficially with a sense of speed in mind, rather than an honest examination of what speedrunning involves.

Good speedgames aren't games where you go fast, they're games with complex route optimization, and flexible tricks for going faster.

Speedrunners like patches that have quality of life improvements, rather than patches that outlaw their style of play. Speedrunners want consistency, and to hang onto their discoveries.

Building a good speedgame most often is just a process of building a good game. Catering to speedrunners usually means things like consistent in-game timers that remove load times between levels and consistent RNG (Axiom Verge had this in its speedrun mode). It means letting people skip cutscenes. It means not wasting people's time.

When a developer tries to deliberately cater to speedrunners, it almost always involves wrong-headed assumptions about what speedrunners want, from the perspective of someone who doesn't speedrun.