Hi, I'm a game dev interested in all sorts of action games but primarily shmups and beat 'em ups right now.

Working on Armed Decobot, beat 'em up/shmup hybrid atm. Was the game designer on Gunvein & Mechanical Star Astra (on hold).

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Most posts are general but if I'm posting about something, it probably relates to my own gamedev in one way or another.


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There is a belief among many beat 'em up players (Final Fight, SOR2 and Ninja Gaiden 2 players in particular, in my experience) that designing games around theoretical no damage runs isn't a goal worth pursuing. This is something that I have always had trouble grappling with because I'm both an enjoyer of that kind of gameplay style (love my grapplers), but also a firm believer of the idea that singleplayer games should be "solvable" in terms of survival, instead of becoming games of luck & probability as the difficulty escalates.

I've had a lot of trouble trying to fit these 2 things together in any way that would make sense, but recently I realized that something really basic connects all of them together - it's how they handle [TIME]. This is more subtle than you'd expect.

To help think about this, view any action the players perform as part of one of 3 categories - building advantage, losing advantage & neutral. The first 2 are (hopefully) easy to understand, but the 3rd one is a little complicated. The purest example of a neutral action is silly stuff like pausing the game or leaving the combat arena. All advantage/disadvantage gets reset or gets stuck in the same state. The more complex & interesting example of staying in neutral is evasive or defensive play in a lot of games with very powerful movement - you aren't losing anything by dodging since repositioning is free, but you aren't gaining anything either. Whiff punishes & multiple targets complicate this further, but there's a general range of interactions that can be seen as the game being stalled or constantly reset.

Someone eloquently described NG2's combat as "dying slower than the enemies", and I think this is a perfect way to describe the role forced damage plays in games - it's a dynamic timer which eliminates the idea of the neutral state. And if there is no neutral state, then every action you perform whether an attack, a dodge or even staying still has meaning. It advances the game in some way.

When viewed as time a lot of this stuff starts making sense. Exploding shuriken spam in NG2 makes evasive play risky and creates a cost to trying to stall the game - even if you can get skilled and minimize damage, its not a guarantee. Because of the enemy speed they will often also block you off from running and overlap in nasty ways you can't control. Contrast that with Nioh where, a handful of enemies aside, you can stall and retreat very easily and comfortably.

Streets of Rage 2 on Mania represents perhaps the most extreme case of this sorta playstyle in beat 'em ups - it floods the screen with basic popcorn who can sneak in hits like nobody's business. And unlike NG2, the game has very slow movement speed and a relatively small arena, making evasive play basically impossible instead of merely risky.

This is also why shmups can capture a lot of the same dynamics without forced damage & with incredibly effective movement and "neutral game" - the time element simply comes from the autoscrolling itself. Neutral is costly because if you aren't killing enemies, you're allowing more enemy overlap to happen, making things more difficult for yourself. Beat 'em up autoscrollers can tap into the same gameplay, but tend to be held back by either a slow spawn rate, or spawns that are tied to wave kills (kill wave 1 to make wave 2 spawn).

Integrating time more deeply into action games is the only way to create the kinda aggressive, proactive play that a lot of beat 'em up fans are after. Forced damage is just one of many ways to go about it - games can be designed around no damage and still have most of these desired dynamics if time is well integrated into their gameplay.

The "forced damage" discussion is also tied into RNG and how it should be used but that's a whole other can of worms.


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in reply to @boghog's post:

This isn't the same thing you're talking about, but I basically want no-damage runs to be possible, but unrealistic enough outside of challenge runs to make damage a practical reality of play. Not for its own sake or to die slower, but because I think HP-management mechanics are neat.

There's the obvious stuff, like Ninja Gaiden essence having you choose between health/currency or UT. But I'm also thinking of games like Odin Sphere classic, which has robust systems for choosing between HP and attack growth, and healing items, as well as how the inventory system interfaces with moment-to-moment in battle, since restoring health isn't a "free" action. And no-damaging fights kinda negates those nuances in a way that I think is a shame, because it means I'm simply not interacting with those systems.

Ironically enough though, OS's ranking system does rank on damage taken, with no damage being required for an S-rank outside of special circumstances (with time being the other factor). And rank does determine the treasure you get, so it does matter. Which kinda deincentivizes engaging with those health-management systems in a way I think is a pity.

I think Hollow Knight is a pretty happy medium because you CAN feasibly no-damage fights, but still interact with the soul system, since the same meter that you increase with attacks can restore health OR be used for spells. So you're explicitly rewarded for not taking damage by being allowed to use your meter management for the more interesting, rewarding thing without feeling like you're kneecapping yourself.

Fr, health mechanics are cool. I think'd like really interesting ways to get HP back by doing certain actions or risks, like restoring HP through grazing hitboxes in Touhou Luna Nights. Best part of em is that they give more encouragement to take other risks and make mistakes sting less.

To me though, it's best to actively disincentivize no-damage runs for my sanity.

Yeah I think no damage runs should be shit high level players grind for, not some kinda basic expectation of the games. You def need to be able to convert HP into something else though otherwise the dynamic will disappear at high levels - could be damage or speed or puntos. Hell using desperation attacks preemptively is a nice health management aspect too

Yeah I agree. I'm always pretty disappointed when I get a health pickup at full health and it doesn't do anything special.

I guess what I want is for the risk/reward to matter when it comes to health. I want there to be management of health, feasible reason to choose to be low health, and so on. It doesn't even have to be fancy; I think the rings in Dark Souls that give you buffs at low health are real neat, for example. Or Bloodstained giving you a buff when you enter low health.