boredzo

Also @boredzo@mastodon.social.

Breaker of binaries. Sweary but friendly. See also @TheMatrixDotGIF and @boredzo-kitchen-diary.



NireBryce
@NireBryce

when you start failing something, making a mistake, etc, it's worth paying attention to it and getting the most learning you can out of it -- it's doomed to fail, but you might not be.

most of my important learned things were from paying attention to everything burning down.

but if you see failure as world-ending or a slight on you or whatever, you're likely to black-hole it instead of learning from it. it's a hard skill to develop if you're constantly in that state, but one of the most impactful ways out of it, too.


jaidamack
@jaidamack

'Failing Mindfully' might be the way I have to try explaining this to people, because there is nothing that drives me as immediately feral as that line. "I did exactly what you did and I didn't get the same result. It didn't work."

Well... okay. So what's the learning opportunity here? If the process failed, where and how? Are you examining that and looking for solutions, or are you throwing up your hands and declaring that some magic third force in the universe is deliberately messing with you?

If you look at my process and my results and perform exactly the same method and you don't get the same result, then are you looking at your equipment? Where's the weak link? There's always something to learn from failure, if you're prepared to accept it as something other than a something happening to you like the universe hates you.

Of course, this doesn't cover the chaotic and unfeeling nature of the universe and how bad things can just happen, but in the scope of attempting something under your own recognizance - especially a game, hobby or similar - the phrase "I did it right and it didn't work" is such a blithe thought-terminating cliché that I damn near hit the roof every time I see it.

This isn't entirely what OP was driving at, but it feels related enough to take the opportunity to shake my fist and remind people about learning opportunities being almost anywhere you cock something up.


boredzo
@boredzo

I feel like fixed vs. growth mindset is part of this.

For those who've never heard of it, a “fixed mindset” is the idea that skills are innate and fixed: you either are or aren't good at something; you are or aren't a “math person”, say. “Growth mindset” is the idea that skills can be developed, and even if you're not good at it yet, you can get better at it through learning and practice. This dichotomy was articulated by psychologist Carol Dweck.

Someone with fixed mindset sees failure—especially failure in their earliest attempts, before any demonstrable skill has been developed—as the indication that This Is Not For Me. Someone with growth mindset sees failure as an indication to reassess the circumstances, methods, and even goals—to attempt to learn. “I can't do this” vs. “I don't know how to do this yet”.

Someone with fixed mindset sees “I tried what they suggested and it didn't work” as an indication that it will work for them, but not for me. They are able to do this; I am not. Someone with growth mindset sees “I tried what they suggested and it didn't work” as a prompt for further examination: I thought I tried what they suggested; did I do it right? What was different between what I did and what they (presumably) had previously done? (Had they done it before or were they spitballing?) Was something different in the environment in which the steps were performed?

Of course, nobody's all one or all the other; we all exhibit a mix of both at times, and it is possible to work away from one towards the other. The more you practice a growth mindset, the more you'll acquire skills you might once have thought impossible for you.


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in reply to @NireBryce's post:

in reply to @boredzo's post:

we agree that this maps cleanly onto the distinction here, it just honestly feels very businessy, in a bad way. like it feels as if this terminology is kinda coming from a place where there are specific obvious goals that everyone should share and should be guided towards, if that makes sense. we agree with the conclusion - of course we think most people will be happier if they let themselves learn things! - but it just feels presumptuous of psychology as a discipline to be pushy about it.

that may well just be our pre-existing feelings latching onto something that's not actually present. we can't tell.

No, I pick up the same vibe, particularly when I look at the Wikipedia article and see mention of her book about it, “Mindset: The New Psychology of Success”.

I guess the counterpoint to that growth-as-path-to-“success” frame would be that it's fine to decide that some things aren't for you. Maybe I can learn this, but I choose not to. I suppose that's still technically a growth mindset, but it reframes that mindset from “learning is Always Better” to “learning/improving/practicing this is an option that is available to me, if I choose to pursue it”.

Anyway, I hesitated on even mentioning Dweck (I think the fixed vs. growth mindset idea stands well on its own), but decided I should not deny her credit, even if I disagree with the goal she presents it as a means towards.

crediting her makes sense, yeah, if you're presenting the framing and vocabulary it makes sense to also mention who the author is.

we strongly believe in exposing ourselves to all ideas, even ideas we expect to disagree with. we would never have gotten out of the dogmatic belief system we were raised in if we didn't believe that, as a deeper principle. if you don't read a thing yourself, you don't have your own opinion on it, you have other people's opinions. citations are important because they respect people's autonomy to make that choice themselves. also, we think all belief systems should kinda... consider themselves at risk of someday becoming dogmatic, and take active measures to head off that risk, for example by encouraging people to read and engage with contrasting views.

plus this one isn't even really contrasting so much as agreeing but from a different angle.

(this isn't a diss tbc I'm just still waking up)

yeah though mostly i find that to never actually help most fixed mindset people who aren't already almost there. if they aren't they seem to tend to take it as insult. so I'm a little more vague these days <_<

It does seem like it requires at least a certain amount of growth mindset in order to begin growing in the direction of growth mindset. The more fixed one's mindset is, the harder that gravity well is to escape.

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