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Kingdom of Loathing
PastaLuck (#3235174)

ponett
@ponett

i'm a big fan of game maker's toolkit. mark's "boss keys" videos on zelda's dungeon design were genuinely very influential on my own dungeon designs in SLARPG (i can't tell you how many times i rewatched the link's awakening one), and i think the channel's only gotten better as he's sought to include more quotes from devs and frame more things as "here's this design problem, and here's how these different devs attempted to solve it and why they made the decisions they did." less prescriptive, more emphasis on how game design is about problem solving with no objectively correct solutions that will please everyone

still, i feel very conflicted about this latest video of his

this was born out of a desire to create a list of 100 games in a sort of "game design canon," games that every prospective designer should study and be able to refer back to, with mark asking his followers to submit suggestions via a form. but he quickly realized it would be better to frame it more subjectively, since a list of only 100 games will never be able to cover everything. the end result is basically a video of 100 games he himself refers back to in his work for their interesting design decisions, with brief descriptions of what's interesting about each one on a design level. it's a solid video, and the way he frames some more divisive games as merely interesting and invites viewers to form their own opinions on their design decisions is good. he'll also present games with completely conflicting goals, for instance praising both doom's gory ultraviolence and undertale's meta pacifism. again, he's not trying to present a list of examples of how games SHOULD be made, but rather a wide variety examples of how they CAN be made, and how different creators with different goals can do so many different things with the medium

but still... i think what strikes me is that the list (which you can also view on backloggd if you don't want to watch the whole video) is just so boring. there's tons of great and influential games on this list, including some of my all-time favorites, but with a very small number of interesting exceptions it's basically exactly the list you would expect a game design video essayist in his 30s to make. dark souls! zelda! journey! new vegas! the stanley parable! far cry 2! deus ex! the walking dead! portal! hitman! there are so few unexpected deep cuts here, but even as a very broad list there are some huge, glaring exceptions, particularly when it comes to older releases and japanese games. there are only 15 games listed from before 2000, for example, possibly due to the preference for games that can be purchased on modern hardware. of those 15 20th century games, there's only room for one sega game (crazy taxi). over half the list was released after 2010. there are only TWO JRPGs on the entire list - pokemon red/blue and persona 5. there is not a single square, enix, or square-enix game on the list

but also, it's like. he says himself that the list has many glaring omissions and that people should go out and play all sorts of stuff. even a two hour video with over 100 games listed (and many more referenced without being on the list proper) is barely scratching the surface of the medium. mark knows this. i think framing the video subjectively as 100 games that taught him something interesting about game design was the right call, as opposed to declaring these 100 games The Canon, but i still can't help but feel like it's a very safe and limiting list. like, do aspiring game devs really need to be told to go check out spelunky, dark souls, and super metroid? don't those kind of go without saying? or am i just not in the target audience for this video as a dev in her 30s who's been following game design discourse and watching channels like GMTK and errant signal for over a decade? idk


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in reply to @ponett's post:

But no, 100 is an interesting number of games to try to build a list like this around because it's large enough that you could trick yourself into thinking you're being exhaustive but also so large that you're guaranteed to commit glaring oversights. Like, there are barely any handheld titles on here. Only one mobile game - Fruit Ninja - to represent a MAMMOTH segment of the medium. Live-service games being represented solely by Fortnite! Not even one single Final Fantasy, but DOOM made it on twice?

There's also an interesting tension in the list between these big tentpole hardware-defining titles like Skyrim, Diablo 2, Animal Crossing, Mario, etc, and what are clearly more personal-preference titles. Like, why Virtue's Last Reward and not 999? Why Civilization 5 instead of 4 or 6? Those personal choices are WAY more interesting to me than hearing about why Breath of the Wild is good for the trillionth time. As you said, I do kind of wish he'd committed even harder to making this an even more personal thing, since yeah attempting to assemble a "canon" just makes it so flat

Wait only crazy taxi from sega?

I know im huge sonic nerd who can't shut up about him but genuinely one of the most facinating things about those games to me is how they make these huge sprawling levels and what they do to keep them interesting to play through, its something i always struggles with making big levels, i run out of energy and i dont know how to keep it interesting.

I don't know who the target audience for this video is, tbh, but it definitely feels generic. Like, I suspect the echoes of the "this is my Personal Canon" means he felt compelled to list The Usual Suspects and Modern Accessible Versions instead of like, anything particularly unique or personal.

see the thing is i know that doesn't describe mark because he's out here making videos about, like, obscure indie detective games and chants of sennaar and whatnot alongside the mainstream AAA stuff

yeah honestly to ur last bit here I don't think the target audience for GMTK is game devs at all. prospective devs or college students fit in there to be sure, but it really feels like a channel for more-than-casual fans of video games and not much else, whether or not they're seriously considering getting into game development. it's like that "[Expert] Answers Questions" series from WIRED's YouTube channel except the host is also not an expert

this is true to some extent, but idk how much i agree. his usual videos are definitely geared towards general audiences and prospective devs as opposed to being super technical breakdowns aimed at experienced devs, but i don't think his videos are, like, NOT for devs. like i said, i've found some of his work extremely helpful myself, and i know i'm not alone in that. the fact that he only recently began actually making games himself doesn't mean his older stuff can't still be insightful. a lot of the writing on game design that's had the biggest impact on me came from critics who've never made a game in their life

I think that's exactly it: he's a very good critic who's good at analyzing games, and entertaining with his knowledge. him not having (much) game dev expertise doesn't disqualify him from making anything "valuable" to devs but it is an important qualifier as to what he does eventually end up making and who it serves. there's a lot to look at for anyone interested in games, but game devs will never be the target audience. partially bc of the demands of the profession as a "content creator" to be sure, everything has to come secondary to entertainment imo

(disclaimer: i haven't watched the video)

when it comes to the topic "games that taught me design", you'd want to approach that from a more foundational level, but that really easily ends up re-treading games that are already popular, since you're more likely to have first exposure to something from them.
at least, that's my guess on why the list could turn out really boring.

i think narrowing the scope somehow would probably produce a more interesting list

I feel like almost anyone making a top 100 list on youtube is at least a sizeable part aiming to get people through confirmation bias by telling them games they like are the best and important. Ideally if you were going to do that it'd probably use that to get people in and then have a still significant portion of the list with stuff people hadn't heard of, but I guess I'm not the one making those lists either.

I also largely bounced off those channels because I felt like I wanted analysis of game development to assume I had a pretty good understanding already, so I know I'm not really the target audience for this.

(This isn't really related to how good or not a list like this would be, but I do feel like my own experience things that have had important lessons about design include a lot of stuff that I think is like... really bad? Like if I did compile a list of games that were influential to me there would be a pretty sizeable amount of 'i really did not like this game, here's why'; and games that are like 'this game was really easy to mod and i had it as a kid')