celsient

thought-haver (chronic)

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21 | queer | scotland


icon: Looks To The Moon (Rain World), by cypresssalmon

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dante
@dante

been thinking a lot about "history" and "fantasy" these days. if you had to press me for The Thing that defines "the fantasy genre" it would be something like "the myths are true", since that is in itself a fantastical concept. myths, in the real world, are not "true", that's kind of the point

a bunch of tribesmen get together and build a few buildings and hundreds of years later the myth of the beginning of rome is that two lil babes were raised by a she-wolf. but if you went back, the lil babes would not be there! the myth grew out of the elements of the history.

but in fantasy, the myths are true, or at least some of them are, right -- the age of heroes was real, the lil babes did suckle at the teat of a she-wolf, the crow did steal the sun, whatever. the action of mythmaking is then recontextualized as history-telling, they become one-and-the-same.

IF YOU ASK ME, that's the core of what makes "fantasy" into "fantasy", because in the real world the history becomes all garbled in the telling over time until the emotional core remains but the details are usually lost or changed. i find both lenses fascinating (obviously) but realizing this little difference helped me whenever i'm doing idle fantasy worldbuilding or whatever


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in reply to @dante's post:

I think you nailed it. I've always had a bit of cognitive dissonance whenever I saw someone worldbuilding out the "history" of their fantasy setting where gods and monsters are very literally doing things and everyone simply remembers them, but couldn't quite place why.

yeah for me it was like... oh the "fantastical" element here is the Gods & Monsters, yes, but it is also the much more low-key fantastical element of "people remembered this shit correctly", which never happens in the real world lol

to expand on this slightly i think the """"point"""" of myths in actual human history is to preserve that "emotional core" of a story -- it's a simple memory device that can be passed on from generation to generation, especially in lieu of more permanent devices (written histories).

you might not remember that there is a slippery cliff-face path on the way to eastershire but you'll probably remember that there is a kraken at the bottom of the ravine that kills all who pass through it, and avoid taking the slippery cliff-face path regardless

Brandon Sanderson (who I run hot and cold on) does some interesting things with this occasionally, for example in the Stormlight books where history works "the way it does in the real world", with ancient history slowly rounding off into myths where archetypes engage in fantasy battles for moral-conveying purposes, but then at some point in the narrative you get a glimpse of what the actual ancient history was and the factual ancient history was also magic nonsense full of fantastic elements like gods and spirit-killing swords, it's just not the same magic nonsense that the myths preserved.

It was kind of nice because on the surface it seems like D&D-player "wouldn't it be cool if…" theorycrafting, but in practice it seems to be saying something interesting about history in the real world, IE, the utter impossibility of accurately recording complex historical incidents if those incidents happened to closely concern the inner lives of people, you're only going to get an outsider's vague outline of what happened and then you're going to struggle to accurately reproduce even that vague outline over time.

My general thoughts are

  • When he's good he really is very good, if there's a Sanderson book everyone you know agrees is good it's probably good
  • He really does think inventing tabletop magic systems is fun unto itself, so go in ready to buy in to that or maybe don't go in
  • He's better at starting stories than finishing them. He keeps writing "First books of a trilogy" that really work entirely well as self-contained stories and you don't need to keep reading, and I really like them, and then I keep reading the trilogy and it's slow and exhausting.
  • Some of his books are really actually for children.

The books of his I like are "Mistborn" ("The Final Empire" in later printings, I think) "Skyward" (very YA) and the first third of The Way of Kings (it's a long book split into three books… and, fitting with my pattern with Sanderson, I like the first book)