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pendell
@pendell

I hang out a lot in r/upsstore, because I work at one. Franchised, usually independently owned and operated stores that do shipping, printing, faxing, notaries, mailboxes, some even do passport photos and fingerprinting.

But if you've ever worked at one, or even been inside one for any period of time, you'll know that none of that comprises the majority of the job. The vast, overwhelming amount of time inside any UPS Store across America is spent processing Amazon returns.

I mean it. You'd be surprised. However many Amazon returns you think we see in a day, it's higher. Sometimes people ask how many we do, and when I say "400 to 800, depending on the day," they usually think I'm exaggerating for a laugh. I'm not. Not in the slightest.

A majority of these returns are done simply because they're free. I've had people come in and wait in line 10 minutes to return a single charging cord. But I've also had people come in with two large laundry baskets full of clothes they tried on once and have been "saving up" to return 37 items in one go, because apparently Amazon doesn't ban your account for doing that. The system is absurdly exploitable. It's gotten so bad that people often come in with Shein or Temu returns thinking they can just have us scan a code and then walk out the door, because they're so used to that being how Amazon does returns, they can't even conceptualize that that whole thing is an Amazon-exclusive program.

Lately, Amazon have been encouraging customers to do their returns at other locations, like Whole Foods, Kohl's, or more recently, Staples. This is because Kohl's and Staples were foolish enough to agree to do Amazon returns for free, believing the "increased walk-in traffic" would translate into increased sales. It won't. Ask any UPS Store employee. Hell, ask any Staples employee.

One of the many threads in r/upsstore about this was brainstorming ideas on how this system could be improved somehow. Everyone agreed the best, easiest first step would be limiting returns. Make it so a customer can't have more than 5 or so returns open at any time, with a cooldown timer as well of 12-24hrs between returns. A self-proclaimed store owner chimed in with their opposition to this idea:

So the issue with your thing, is you are now punishing people who don't cause trouble for the program. Example, this lady buys 3 to 4 outfits a month, She buys 5 different sizes (try before you buy) as she can go from xs to med/large depending on the brand. So if she has 3 dresses, she is returning 12 items, or 4 dresses 16. If she has shorts/pants with a shirt, then we are looking at 24-32 items. But you know something, she has her shit together. Straight up, Screenshot with what goes with one, 1, 2 ,3 on the bags, and her SS has 1,2,3. So why should she be punished when we have a customers who would take longer to do 1 return than for her to straight up do 30.

I've never read something so... blind? Just, completely glazing over the hugest, most Titanic-destroying-iceberg sized problem in their argument. I had to respond. It's something I felt very strongly about. I figured I'd share it here.

What she's doing is, at its very core, a pointless, wasteful, horribly harmful thing - the amount of waste generated in shipping all of that to her and shipping it back to a landfill, all the material used to make the clothes she tries on once and then gets thrown away (by Amazon), it's unsustainable and destructive at its core. It's the retail equivalent of smoking cigarettes and then littering the butts. Why should littering be made illegal, it'll mean this one smoker I know won't be able to toss their lit cigarette butts out their car window! Well, that person shouldn't be smoking ANYWAYS!

We used to have a solution for not knowing what size clothing to buy - it was called going to a store and trying things on. I've read, in the history books, that these mythical "clothing stores" even had entire ROOMS dedicated to trying on different items to see what fit you, and anything you didn't decide to keep didn't get immediately shipped halfway across the state and then dumped in a landfill!

I'm just sayin'

Obviously this doesn't apply to disabled people or anyone who for any genuine reason can't go out to stores. But to be clear, it's never the disabled, the immunocompromised, or those with genuine reasons who come in to return their garbage to Amazon. It's almost universally the affluent upper middle class who have more money than sense and are too lazy to get up off the couch in their cushy, isolated suburban home. They'll arrive in their Mercedes SUV, unload 30 cheap pieces of crap, scream when you tell them one of their items needs to be packaged, and then huff and storm out when they're done. These people don't deserve this lifestyle.

And this lifestyle isn't a real lifestyle anyways. It's propped up by an absurdly evil billionaire who knows he's losing money to support their addictions and he doesn't really care, because as long as you're locked in, as long as you're addicted to his services, he's in control. And it's not a matter of if, but of when he gets tired of it, or Amazon spontaneously goes out of business, or he gets his head chopped off, or anything happens that this always-unsustainable house of cards comes crashing down. Your life hasn't actually been improved by Amazon, they just really want you to think that, so that you'll keep using Amazon.


Keeble
@Keeble

Btw it’s much easier to quit Amazon than you might think for retail purchases. Once you don’t have prime the competitive advantage of shopping there totally vanishes. I have bought a grand total of one thing since April 2020 from Amazon; that one time was literally the only time I’ve ever been able to only get something on amazon. As it turns out, too, having to pay shipping costs disincentivizes you from ordering things! Because you don’t want to pay the cost! That extra second of thinking about it is sometimes all you need

I encourage you to let your prime lapse at the bare minimum and just. Pay attention to how your shopping changes. You damn well know you don’t have to use amazon for everything retail. There are so many other stores, which still exist


pendell
@pendell

I like to buy blu-rays from boutique indie move labels quite often. One of those companies is called Grindhouse Releasing. Their blu-rays usually come in fancy cardboard sleeves with cool art and extras stuffed inside. If I buy direct from their website, the items always arrive carefully and delicately packaged, wrapped on all sides by a layer of bubble wrap and slotted perfectly into a box they use because it's the exact right size to fit their blu-rays with a bit of bubble wrap around them. I've never had one arrived with so much as a dent.

Meanwhile, they have listings on Amazon, which, while priced the same or sometimes a few dollars less, are flooded with reviews and pictures showing how Amazon simply tossed the disc bare into a vastly oversized cardboard box, or crammed it into a brown manila paper mailer, and they almost always arrive crushed, torn, cracked, or otherwise obliterated.

This is not because the employee packing it didn't care, or was being malicious. It's because they didn't have the time to give it the care it needed, and Amazon definitely didn't provide them the supplies they needed to do it properly.

I also used to buy some international discs from Amazon, through a company called Rarewaves, because on the surface the individual price of each item was cheaper on Amazon (did you know Amazon actually makes it a stipulation in their seller contracts that the seller cannot have their items listed for less than their Amazon rates on any other platform, even their own? Jesus Christ). One day I decided to see how much it would cost to buy from Rarewaves directly. I discovered that Amazon was charging more for international shipping and tacking on a "currency conversion guarantee" fee for the privilege of... selling you items at the listed price? Anyways, it's cheaper to buy direct from the seller's own platforms in most cases, and they usually offer robust rewards programs and exclusive deals and coupons and such that end up saving you money in the long run.


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in reply to @pendell's post:

The parallel try-on thing is fascinating because yeah it is basically optimal if you can afford to float 3x the cost of the items on your credit card. That's kind of how a lot of tech "innovation" of the zero interest rate era worked: convenient inefficiency, subsidized by cheap credit, some attempt to optimize with Computers™ on the back end. You see less of this lately. Clothing has been a white whale of Amazon for a while now, though, so I guess they're still at it.

I have heard actual horror stories from UPS Stores across the country where affluent white BMW-driving soccer moms will be told by a brown employee that they'll need to package their return, and then get called a n----r outright to their faces. This kind of system breeds complacency, entitlement, immaturity, and brings out the worst in many people (though that woman was obviously already not a great person, Amazon certainly didn't help her any)

Oh definitely. The one event that sticks out in my memory was this one middle-aged lady who came in and wanted to make a copy of a document, so we pointed her to the self-service station. Well it came out black and unusable, and it turned out she was trying to copy a death certificate. (For those reading and unfamiliar, most modern office copiers have sensors and firmware that prevent people from making copies of official government documents like this since it's illegal to do so.) When we told her this, she went on a tirade about how she should be able to make copies and it's all the fault of "those damn illegals" with a very pointed look at me.

God, working a similar shop that couldn't process those returns, always them bringing in a loose item and their paper. Felt bad for the local UPS Store, as these folks would already be miffed having to drive somewhere else.

Sheesh, but also the horrid expectations Amazon set for every other customer of any other service. "That box costs MONEY?" "I have to pay for shipping?" "Why can't you just do this, I was just told to drop it off." Or the complete disconnect between actual retail shipping costs and Amazon's 2-day dreamland

genuinely I have no idea how this is sustainable. On the rare occasions I'm forced to use Amazon I pick slow free shipping and it still arrives in two days because their supply chain isn't even built for going slower

So yes, not only does the absurd volume of Amazon returns mean we barely have any time left to deal with actual, paying customers, but it also means a lot of those paying customers wince at our honestly fairly normal prices. "I need this overnighted." "Okay, that'll be $57." "WHAT?" Because they're so used to Amazon giving them next-day shipping "for free" that they've never realized how much it actually costs to get things delivered that far that quickly.

I haven't experienced this myself, but I have heard from other UPS Store employees that, on more than one occassion, customers have, fully genuinely, asked them about their "free shipping option." Amazon has so far removed people from the real world that they think this is how everything works.

Ah hell nah haha. The packaging alone would cost like $100 for all that, minimum.

We had a customer doing a bunch of huge Amazon returns, and they were all oversized items that needed to be Customer Packged - you still get a qr code for us to scan, but the instructions tell you to package the item and it says in big bold text underneath the qr code "CUSTOMER PACKED" but people never read. She seemed to understand and agreed to pay for packing of each item, and we told her to price of each box as we went through each item. At the end we rang her up for all the boxes, she saw the price, said she wasn't going to pay that, and made us take all her items back out of the boxes we'd already begun to pack them in and give them back to her, so she could leave, having wasted all of our times and, more than made us no money, actively lost us money.

being as I am too disabled to walk far I can tell you right now that if I'm making a journey to a store it'll be one where I can try several clothes in a row. Whenever I've had to return things it's been a logistical pain in the ass that often involves recruiting other people to go to the post office for me., so this is not a situation I set myself up for on purpose

Right, the problem isn't the "system throughput." The problem is an anti-competitive practice meant to drive other online retailers out of business (as they try to compete with someone who can personally afford to lose a billion dollars before his life changes appreciably), which hides the actual costs of moving things around and convinces other companies to become complicit under the delusion that this will magically lead to additional business for them.

Right. The entire core idea of a return program that allows you, the customer, to return absolutely any item, in any quantity, at zero cost to you, is a bald-faced lie of convenience hiding the real costs to keep you addicted to the platform. But unfortunately many, many people would rather never think any further on it than "hey, it's free!"

It might be even more devious than that. In the long term, they don't care what the customers want. More important is forcing their competition to run on free shipping/returns, too, so that they go out of business.

Back in the '70s, that sort of thing was illegal, especially when you had a chain store moving into a neighborhood. Gas stations were especially prone to that, because you usually have one on every corner of an intersection, and the one losing 20% on every gallon pumped puts the direct competition in a bad position. Then we elected some guy who used to work with a monkey, and his economics people insisted that a lower price is a lower price and consumers should love it whether they like it or not...

honestly the most unhinged part of that comment is the thought of a person being rich enough to buy three to four outfits a month as a regular thing. could not possibly imagine it let alone having enough closet space to put all those clothes,

I've heard that you're not supposed to be seen wearing the same dress twice to Occasions. Even if it's been months. Best case, you've gotten the Occasion out of a dress, it's now normal clothes. Probably you wear it once and just throw it away though. And yeah it's easy to scale up to several Occasions a month. I can see this happening easy.

Of course it's just the mantra of fast fashion, like "an apple a day" did for the apple growers. But for some reason people have a harder time disbelieving this one. Guess they like having a rule to catch poor people. :/

Three to four a month... lol. I've had customers who, while looking for the qr code for their 12th return item, that they bought a month ago, have to scroll down their Amazon "Your Orders" page for genuine minutes to find it. I'm astonished at how someone can even afford to buy and accumulate that much crap that quickly. If I did a strong single flick on the Your Orders page on my phone, it would probably take me back to November 2022.

As someone on the tech side, let me tell you, we also bear the brunt of stores complaining when the system breaks when there's 99% of the time nothing we can do because it's an amazon server issue and we're only on the UPS side. The whole system is designed with only one goal in mind of ruining other online retailers in an unsustainable system so they can swap out later to a more sustainable one, but it just leads to everything that can go wrong will go wrong.

Oh, our corporate IT support is among the worst. And I understand it's not the individual employees' fault - the few times I've spoken with TUPSS IT on the phone I've been nothing but respectful and they've been nothing but helpful, but man the entire system is set up to constantly fail, it seems. Two of our three computers run slower than I've ever seen any computer run, in my entire life. Our primary PC that hosts the servers for a lot of our critical systems, meaning when it's down, we can hardly do anything, takes about fifteen minutes to reboot fully into a usable desktop. I've suggested that something as simple as replacing the spinning disk hard drives with cheap SSD's would probably speed them up considerably, but I've been told corporate strictly disallows any modifications to the computers, so we just have to grit our teeth and bear it. Shit sucks, man.

Oh yeah, that would likely be the RP 5810, who's supposed to be reaching EOL soon. Stores have been able to upgrade since at least 2019 to a newer model but many franchisees refuse to because "it works still" even though it's obviously struggling. It runs so slow because it doesn't have an SSD and mPOS is optimized for that. Yeah corporate is awful about it, I'm on the contractor side with level 1 support and the number of complaints I hear about corporate makes me wonder if anyone even works there half the time.

The best part is we got so fed up with that machine in particular, my store owner did order a replacement PC... In June. It's expected to arrive in September, hopefully. 3 months is pretty absurd turnaround time to get a single new PC in.

FIVE SIZES PER ITEM???? I know from experience that shopping for clothes as a human shaped woman is HARD but even when i'm ordering, let's say, a fit-specific item like slacks or a nice formal dress, I buy two sizes max AFTER consulting the size guide (and then use in-store returns at my local uniqlo or whatever because honestly I just hate mailing returns anyway). All the other numbers in that store owner's made up anecdote are crazy but i am really focusing on this one because if you are buying 4 full outfits a month you know damn well what size you are lmao

Not to mention that this mass produced plastic clothing garbage has made all the local thrift stores totally unusable. every other item is some six letter gibberish brand off amazon and it's awful

in reply to @Keeble's post:

that so much of it is inconvenient reveals the premise of online shopping assuming two things: a) you are increasingly a hermit who never leaves home and, perhaps, is trying to interact with others as little as humanly possible and b) the above is self-reinforcing once you get into the habit of only knowing how to buy things online. convenience in online is about, what, not having to go to a real place to see the product first? not leaving home at all? real life not giving you the time to go out and buy things in person technically, while in practice having enough downtime at your presumably computer based job that you can idly click purchase on things without leaving the office? And as noted above, there's seemingly a whole group of people who are, like, scared of going shopping in person for certain things bc theyve never done it. its related to the appification of everything delivery has made people afraid to talk on the phone to basically anyone.

Similar things can be said about delivery apps in general. love to pay more money for worse food that underpays its drivers and hyper inconveniences the restaurant workers. what, exactly, is the added convenience beyond the price of having to call the chinese restaurant or w/e being worse to you than clicking a button

I keep thinking about this reply and whether this phenomenon is a good, bad, or neutral thing. My inkling is probably bad; most of these people would probably do things in person if they could right? But not all

I think it's too complex to be concretely good or bad in itself. I think that there are many good things about a type of organism that projects itself across physical space, but neglect for community and physical environment are abysmally bad consequences of that taken to it's extreme. I think most people, even those most guilty of this, realize it's making them unhappy.

Agreed. I did some prep-work ahead of cancelling so that I didn't find myself worrying about where to source some niche ingredient, but even if you can't/won't get out to shop, plenty of options still exist and seem to be doing fine...as long as they're not VC-funded.

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