djynnflyssa

Godspeed Me! Green Dinosaur

  • he/him

Cartoon dino furry since 2k4


Kayin
@Kayin

I feel like I gotta set the stage here so everyone knows where I'm coming from. If you follow my private twitter and mostly know how I feel about this stuff, feel free to skip down to the pictures.

I hate all this AI shit. It opens up so many pandoras boxes, so many legal issues, so many ethical issues, all so we can do less of the things that make us human. On the other hand, this stuff isn't going away. Maybe the Chat-GPT model isn't sustainable as we crash into the exponential curve of processing power we need to produce accurate truth, but we're stuck with machine learning. Especially AI art gen. Text takes special made hardware to do at the level needed for good results but ART? You can do it on your gpu right now. Even in the best case scenario where this shit gets legislated to hell and back, people, casually, are gonna be running AI art models forever.

For further context, I'm an artist. A (former? dodgy?) illustrator, a type setter, pixel artist, 3d modeler and animator. I mess with everything and, despite kinda HATING IT, I've been, for the last month, been messing with using stable diffusion. Mostly keeping stuff to myself/private cause lol it's all like RP porn trash anyways and like, the ethical issues (it's fucked up to gen something and recognize the underlying artist). I don't want anyone to ever get confused about what these images are. But I'll post one -- ad more, the process of one -- as a chance to just... talk about how this stuff works, how it makes me feel, and just.. the general shortcomings.

The Process is invisible

I'll see people say a lot that "AI Art isn't Art" and that isn't wrong necessarily, but reductive. The image the AI gives you is not, in and of itself, 'art'. But the processes, your goals, your expression, your compositing and all that, all that is what makes all these artificial lines art. We're used to the lines being the art -- being able to see the process, see the work. AI art almost like an AMV. You didn't make the animation -- but by moving around elements you can make some new, chuuni as hell meaning. The art is the cut, not the content.

For AI though, the work is invisible. The 'cut' hides itself, and the content masquerades as original. An effortful piece to get things exactly as the artist intended is hard to distinguish from a satisfied user who was just prompt fishing. It's hard to tell how much you're demanding of the machine, and how much you're ceding to it. Harvesting a Pretty Picture from the Pretty Picture Mines is much different from expressing your will and desire. In fact, trying hard with AI art tends to produce weird muddy artifacts and stuff so honestly you're PUNISHED for caring. The incentives are perverse.

... But it DEFINITELY can still be art.

The Part that's Art

The first thing I tried to do with SD is generate my friend's character, Ari. Ari is cool fuckgirl who delivers packages by riding a giant Rok Falcon. This seemed perfect. You can do birds, right? Girl on top of bird, the perfect AI job and..

Okay yikes


So I shelf that idea and do a bunch of other stuff for the next month and decide hey, I know more about this stuff, I got a whole inpainting/compositing workflow down, I got more models and have a better idea what they do, so lets try again. This time we'll generate Ari on a PEGASUS, then I can inpaint the shape of a bird, but we'll have the wing positions and--

... Okay wait... shit.

Hey I got a decent one lemme just do a rough doodle over it and

... Motherfucker. OK new NEW plan. We'll generate the BIRD and THEN add the girl! The models seem good at generating decent Aris (even though they lean toward one very particular, average version of that character because AIs are unoriginal), so lets start with BIRDS.

Okay you know what, AI can't do birds.

This is kinda abridged. There were lots of attempts for all of these, and a lot of me messing with different models to find me one that could do a bird. But this is kinda part one of the problem. A girl riding a giant bird is NOT an original concept at all. But there still isn't a ton of art of exactly that so it struggles. You could train a model on bird drawings??? But at what point do you just draw the fucking bird? AI is both enabling and very creatively restrictive if you care about the results.

Well, I'm doing this to learn to work with AI generation and also could never draw a good non pixel art bird, so back to GENERATING.

HEY! HEY OKAY!! GREAT! Close enough! I could keep going but that's another bad thing about AI. It turns you into a fucking gambler. Maybe the NEXT seed will be better. But fuck that, this is a fun 'doodle'. I try and keep myself reasonable because AI art is frankly less fun than other mediums if you just sit there kicking your GPU in the dick over and over.

Okay so we can hide the legs, crop in, draw in the girl...

... Okay that's NOT Ari but this is kinda working! Lets keep regenning until...

Okay lets re extend, change the pants color, flip the head...

... Fool around, give her a hair cut, shrink those boobs, add some bird fluff and....

So now we're gonna UPSCALE this using a TILE UPSCALLER which is a good way to upscale things when you dont' have infinite vram and...

okay I forgot to take the prompt out so it applied it to every tile. ALSO A HORSE AGAIN WHY WON'T IT GIVE UP ON HORSES. Anyways, we can use some of this, and...

Okay cool! This is like a picture. At this point I liked it and showed my friend, who also liked it. But it feels weird still... the AI energy that feels off. Ari doesn't feel composited in well. Her style clashes. The FOV feels wrong for this sort of shot. A general problem is, when you get an AI picture, you get a picture that no one would ever draw like that. The motivation ends up feeling wrong. So often you gotta go in and correct for that... which is a challenge because you gotta figure out what's even "off" to begin with.

Like okay lets add some haze and mush up the line art a little to sorta make her less sharp and wait no her jacket isn't reflecting right cause the AI wouldn't know about that, so lets make it kinda blue-ish...

The final bit was using a lens effect to kinda reverse fisheye things to get Nutmeg (the birb) and Ari better in frame and get a bit more of a sweeping feel. It's got issues, Nutmeg looks derpy but lol The only good bird I ever did was pixel art

It still feels AI-ish but... that's... fine? Honestly, with most of my AI Art stuff I don't want it to pass. I want it to be honest about what it is. I've been doing a lot of fake 'real people/photo' stuff because it is so DEFINITELY AI because it doesn't resemble anything real. The intrinsic lean toward mimicry is one of the big challenges of treating AI art with any sort of seriousness.

The other problem is like... Okay, this is art. I made an art. But the art I made has artistic tells far beyond what I did. I called this a 'doodle' but the end result is something mimicking a piece someone could easily spend 10-40 hours on, depending on their skill. Again, used to the art being the lines. It's complicated for me, who likes this picture, to share it, outside of a context like this, because the dissonance between my effort and the end result is huge. I made art, but I didn't make a dozens of hours painterly anime piece and as an artist in like a dozen different mediums THIS IS REALLY FRUSTRATING!!!! I HATE IT SO MUCH!! I don't want to deceive, I don't want the stolen valor. If I downloaded some 3d models from turbo squid and made a scene people kinda realize 3d artists do stuff like that all the time, but AI art is a natural liar which makes genuinely interacting with it SUPER HARD.

Still again, I like this picture, I thought it was fun to make. I felt like I learned things from omission by the AI, which was interesting. I still feel grossly weird. Some arts I've never met have bits of their lines in their, ground up and glued together like particle board or a fast food chicken sandwich. Part of the reason why if I ever used this for anything public, I would NOT use any kind of illustrative model. It's just too messy

I also feel like people who think they can become an artist without art skills with AI are deluded. This shit is SO annoying. This was a simple composite for me, compared to shit with like, multi layers of color corrections, actual drawn in assets, making clean plates or w/e and just really having fun in photoshop. That shit is SO fun, I love doing it, but.... the results I gotta keep private, because I can't JUST take credit for the 140 layer photoshop file I made. And the fact I can't share this stuff isn't an injustice by people who just don't understand, it is a problem inherent to the tools. It sucks. It sucks so bad. It's fun?? but I hate it. We are cursed by the opening of pandoras box and everything is just gonna keep getting worse but fuck it, I'm gonna enjoy the challenge of getting a machine to put a girl on a bird.


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in reply to @Kayin's post:

this is only partially related but:

i think of posting AI art as reposting the work of someone else

yes, it looks neat, good job finding it

... what, you want me to pay you to repost?

I don't think that quite works always but I definitely ascribe to "don't do any with an AI image you wouldn't do with something you found on GIS" which is similarish

It was interesting watching you try to use """AI""" as a legitimate design tool and I think you made something pretty okay with the limitations

But

Personally I just couldn't get over the "AI taint" you describe multiple times, just like you I would never, ever want to present it as a work

I feel like I couldn't even bear it if I had it generate something really minor like an abstract background either

Just everything about this shit makes whatever it touches feel wrong and uncanny

Yeah and I think that's exactly it. It's Okay and it's better when their are no illusions otherwise. So many aspects of the Falcon and the character too that just have to be... gently glazed over.

But yeah it's a real feeling. And I've done all the worst stuff, like trying those style theft LORAs, doing shit like 'juicing up' my old art and just everything to see how it makes me feel. And most of the time the answer is pretty bad. The "Increase the quality of my drawing it while maintaining it lose enough to my style" was some bad stolen valor ass feeling and that shit is staying locked away.

As for where I would consider using this for real work, I have some examples.

A lot of this, first off, works well in 3d. I think it's because 3d is ALREADY such a collage/kitbash medium. Like why not generate a texture instead of combing Google Image Search? Unless I'm purposefully looking for license free textures or normal maps, it's... kinda no worse than what a lot of 3d artists already do (cause lol 3d artists, even pro ones, snag a LOT of stuff)?

A more complicated one is my own 3d renders where say, I had an example of a wet shirt I couldn't get right. So I took the image, ran it through stable diffusion pic2pic style (my favorite way to use SD, normally) and then composite it with the original. Like not the whole thing, just the spots on the shirt, maybe some skin wetness or whatever. This feels less bad than when I did this with 2d art cause it's both naturally more like how 3d compositing processes already go, and by using more photoreal models, there is less 'accidental art style' biting. I have examples of this I've done that I feel pretty good about and would feel okay posting if not for them being personal porn lol. I'd get someone not wanting to do that but it crosses my 'okay' threshold.

And LASTLY the most valid one was probably when I used SD to get some baseline erosion and fractelness on the maps I was doing by using a model trained on nothing but heightmaps. I mean this is just... 100% fine, pretty much.

Eeeeeeverything else, even if I like the end result, kinda leaves me feeling weird.

By the way I said what I said as a talentless artist who just bought colored pencils last week for doodling in an attempt to slightly curb my overwhelming anxiety

My point being that I'm probably among the target audience for """"""""""""""""""AI"""""""""""""""""". But even I don't want to use it because of the rampant theft it enables.

You really ought not to feel bad about using models in general, though. If they have a specific intent, and that intent was brought into being by a real-ass human coder, then it's basically just an alternate version of buying or using an open-license prerendered texture. It's a tool with a specific intent. You're using it for what it was made for. And while that's one of the same basic arguments being made for why LLM AI is okay, it feels obviously distinct to me, purely because it fails the "I know it when I see it" test ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/I_know_it_when_I_see_it ). I'll try to explain what distinctions I'm making about tools here...

Like, we're somewhere between making cookies out of cookie dough with your fingers (metaphor for pure freeform), and doing it with a cookie cutter (metaphor for pure copy and paste). Something about the cookies made with a LLM AI passes the line between "I designed this cookie myself" and "I took this design for a cookie from elsewhere but I have enough plausible deniability to say I didn't" and because of how amorphous it is it makes it a frustrating pain in the ass to even talk about. A knife is not the same thing as a cookie cutter, and that's how I would describe models with specific, niche purposes in mind like you describe; they expedite and clean up the production process and keep things looking appealing to the human eye without really locking down creative expression. Sometimes things just look the way they look and it's not really something that feels interesting to be creatively expressed. It's still on the same scale so you could say a knife is doing the same thing as a cookie cutter, but at least by my standards it passes the "I know it when I see it" test while LLM AIs don't.

As I previously mentioned about being talentless, if I just want to have a nice picture of a character it doesn't feel right because the tool I used fails the test. I might as well have grabbed something off of google images and slapped it on my token. At least then the form would be right. And I'd actually have someone to attribute. And just, fucking. That somehow feels less like theft.

I'm naturally a control freak so I feel a lot of this for sure. And it's weird, with most stuff, I don't are of people notice that I put care into some detail or not -- part of the fun is people noticing their care on their own or noticing different little details. But with AI art -- the gooey line between your hands and a cookie utter -- it's like aaaa no please notice! Or god notice what frustrates me too!! It's like it wants to hide as much of your humanity as possible. Which is why most of my favorite uses bury it under as much of my own direct art as possible.

... And as interesting as I find this stuff (begrudgingly) that mechanical pencil will serve you better in the long run.

I have a friend that's all about whatever the new tech is and he was obsessed with creating art with stable diffusion. It was mostly his TTRPG characters that he plays with and that's cool. He wasn't trying to pass it off as his own art or anything like that. But he was constantly praising it and how efficient it was.

Me personally, I don't like taking the process out of art, so the only use I'd get out of it is creating references for a piece. And even then, why would I need an AI to do that when I'm perfectly capable of finding my own references? I'm sure it'll have it's uses in the future when every PC comes pre-installed with one. I'm not looking forward to that.

I have come across a few people that are blown away by AI art, but my suspicion is they have Aphantasia or have never tried to learn an artistic medium.

Yeah that's like one of the more reasonable uses of this stuff. Not worth us burning the art world down with chaos and uncertainty but we're stuck with this shit so why not?? Gen your TTRPG character 🙃

Also lol I think it's aphantasies and more just art exposure. Like lol people will be like "Look at this amazing fantasy landscape!" and it'll just look like some generic MTG card. Gorgeous art, trying to be as vague but artificially 'wow' as possible. It's also like... the more of you see of it, the more you see it's limitations. If you just peak at AI art or text gen it's like WOW!!! and then the more you use it the dumber you realized it is.

"The process" is honestly why I started messing with stuff. Now, if you look at an AI drawing like a drawing lol lmao that's cutting in line, that's skipping the process. But I'm mixed medium so I'm kinda used to very different processes or either some procedural ones (3d stuff that's not AI). So the question for me has been, for the last month, how much does it take for me to feel like I have control of what I'm making to the point I can be proud of it? And like, obvious from all my other ranting the answer is "uggghghghghg it's complicated aaaa fuck me" but you can totally have an invovled process with AI art! That said, it also makes me go "ugh, it'd been ages, I should just DRAW something" cause lol lmao it's so fucking frustrating and dumb too and I just wanna be a weird little control freak instead of yelling at a robot

Agreed. I'm sure there are plenty of people who will use tools like Stable Diffusion for nothing more than personal use which is fine by me.

Honestly, the generic and vague backgrounds are what interest me the most with AI. For years I've been trying to force myself to draw any sort of comic, but my interest is in drawing characters and objects, not backgrounds. So if I just had a tool to at least give me an idea of what to have in the background, that could at least take some of the work off of my shoulders. But at the same time, if I'm going to that much trouble, I'd rather pay an artist that does love to draw the backgrounds instead.

I totally feel you on the control aspect. It's one of the reasons I love using apps like Procreate. The amount of control I have is amazing. If I want to experiment and not mess up what's already on screen, just create a new layer or new brush and see where it goes.