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dreamcastaway
@dreamcastaway

Last night I made a quick tweet about how I think Persona games (particular from Persona 3 onwards) tend to be fundamentally conservative games. In worlds filled with magic powers, shadow selves, and literal gods there's an understanding that many of the most villainous people you can know are folks in positions of social/political power who weaponize their status in order to prey on those beneath them. This is a particular focus of Persona 5 but it extends even back to back to a game like Persona 2 and characters like Tatsuzou Sudou. Although these games acknowledge the social structures that lead to particularly vicious kinds of abuse, there is tendency for our protagonist to then fold themselves into those power structures. In games that focus less on real-life political allegory, there's still pattern of protagonists eventually accepting the societal roles that they're initial chafing against. It's a very common occurrence in the series. clockwork!

Persona 4 is the chief culprit here. Yukiko struggles with the idea that her presumed inheritance of the Amagi Inn is an imposition on her life but makes peace with that fact and eventually prepares herself for that role. Chie confronts Adachi, shocked that anyone who chose to be a police officer would do so for selfish reasons or betray the ideal image she holds of that job. Though confronted with the ways in which the system enabled Adachi's murders, she ultimately decided that she wants to become a police officer. Just as some examples. there's more!

(I'm not gonna talk about Naoto. That's a minefield. as a trans critic people ask what I think about Naoto quite often. my answer is I like Naoto quite a bit and while I appreciate the queer read I don't need her story to be actually about transness. my tongue in cheek deep position here is that I think she's the damn coolest thing in the Dancing All Night opening movie. absolute fire!)

Persona fans are totally reasonable human beings. by which I mean that they might be the most electric and fuckin' absurd fandom I've ever encountered. While some people agreed with my read of the series, many others swarmed in. Which is fine enough. That's just what happens when you're visible on Twitter. I don't really have an interest in outlining the series in gross detail although, contrary to many accusations, I have played all the mainline games. One thing that can never be hurled my way is a suggestion that I don't play videos games. This criticism doesn't arise out of nowhere though I admit I didn't exactly expect it to become a trending topic floating in the "For You" tab. I was tweeting before bed.

Lesson learned! This fandom is wild! So it goes!

I've been thinking about people's responses and I want to venture into fraught territory to talk about a particularly bad habit I see from many fans. Which I think can be extended to things like ongoing debates about localization as much as they can apply to this little tempest in a teapot. Which is that I've grown somewhat concerned with he ways in which RPG fans (intentionally or not) exoticize Japan as a means to defend their favorite games from critique. It's kinda bad!

and I'm gonna risk a ramble exploring the topic...


dorkandy
@dorkandy

this is a very good post that is very interesting to read through -- it echoes similar feelings I have towards Persona, specifically "Persona The Game with its Fanbase, at large"

It is very difficult to say anything about Persona (and truthfully any Japanese media at this point) without a swarm of people coming for you saying it isn't your place to criticize, since you cannot comprehend The Very Mysterious Japanese Culture It Derives From. I have found that these people do not actually wish to engage with Japanese Culture but they want to love whatever they think is right about it.

Persona games try to explore societal issues and, more often than not, fail at making a point anyway. This is extremely visible in P4 and P5 and also one of the reasons I thoroughly dislike P5. P4G is still my favorite game! but as OP points out, the protagonists are never free from what the game tries to explore. It is okay to say that.
P5, on the other hand, fails a lot quicker in my opinion. While the first palace you explore has the backdrop of a teacher abusing his female students, you also end up pimping out Ann (and it is Played Up For Laughs even) in the next chapter of the game.

The thing is, you can look up news and papers about Japan at any time and see exactly what these games try to talk about. The societal pressure of being a first born, corruption in the workplace, a loneliness epidemic, sexual harassment and how women are often mistreated to name a few. But Japan's weird veneer still endures in the eyes of most people.

I'm very sorry to OP since these additions might not seem worthwhile, but I think about Persona a lot, too. It's a really weird game and fandom. I still love the franchise for all of its good, but it is really weird to be able to look at a thing you like whilst being capable of critical thinking -- when others refuse to even entertain your (documented and educated) thoughts about it.


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in reply to @dreamcastaway's post:

Thank you for writing this out and I'm so sorry the fans got insufferable in your notifications. So many folks I try to talk to about this just cling to their nostalgia for the series when it's like... we have better games now, games with actual narrative integrity.

Another way I've heard this is expressed is that while Persona 4/5 in particular are about teenage rebellion, the creative leads are ultimately conservative and so everything is cast through that lens. Problems are identified, but the solutions are to remove the bad apples and then grow up and discover that actually society basically works. Persona 5 is particularly egregious in this regard since every antagonist is a member of the societal elite, and while the game correctly identifies that they need to be removed it never gets around to questioning how they became the societal elite in the first place.

Y'know, it's kinda funny comparing it to the mainline SMT games, which always start with "a nuclear war has destroyed civilization." What kind of society should be rebuilt is the whole point of those games, which I guess is easier to explore with more distance from contemporary society.

Really, the Persona games are just portal fantasies. Teens go on a fantastical adventure with the only actual goal of personal growth and development, all the fantasy/scifi stuff is just metaphorical. Heck, the new game coming out from the P3/4/5 writer is literally titled "Metaphor"!

3 was a beautiful, stylish experiment and Atlus learned they could make a lot of money selling waifus so they polished all the rough edges off and now as a series it's boring and overly polished and refuses to commit to saying anything. As the founding members of Atlus have left over time the company has changed and the magic in P2: Innocent Sin won't be repeated.

Considering how much of the staff between Persona 3 and 4 stayed the same, and how much Persona 3 has very similar story stuff to 4 and 5, I don't think it makes sense, critically, to idolize P3 as the last great Persona game

This is great. Thanks for expanding. The bit about orientalism really hits for me. And while I don't really no the full extent of the Twitter replies, I wonder if partially, they were also driven by the emotional whiplash of having games that a lot of fans think to be quite liberal described rather as conservative. I can't help but imagine that these fans (who I guess are figments of my imagination since I have no idea what they said) are responding from an internalized conviction that liberalism and conservatism are inherently antagonistic and inhabit opposite ends of a binary.

Whereas, I'd say that Persona is a clear example for how liberalism as a political philosophy is quite good at integrating conservative and reactionary elements into itself. In this case, Persona 3/4/5 could be perceived as arugably liberal for espousing strong attitudes towards individual rights, especially individual autonomy (especially P5), free expression (again, P5 and Yusuke in particular), and the individual capacity (read: responsibility) to seek liberation (for themself, generally at the expense of any sort of greater societal change).

I'd also argue that the way P4 requires its characters to 'return to the fold' or reintegrate is also, frankly, a liberal ideal, and one of the more insidious qualities of liberalism as a system: while it condones individual growth and enlightenment, it refuses to accept that individuals actually can achieve lasting self determination because to do so would entail a rejection of the systems that are prized above all else under the marriage of capital and liberalism (private property, security [controlled through policing], primacy of the nuclear family [and all the cisheteronormativity that it entails], individual privacy, and so on). I think P5 Royal exhibits these liberal qualities most of all in its extra, final dungeon, which is essentially just a crash course in perpetuating the ideology of individual, bodily autonomy. At the same time, I find that the reactionary tendency towards traditionalism and retreat to the status quo is certainly present, but it is easily subsumed into the wider ideological framework.

This is not to offer any real points of disagreement; rather, it is more an exercise on my own part to make the argument that P 3/4/5 are inherently anti-leftist projects. They have no real answers for changing social systems, and they limit most of their concerns about oppression and exploitation to that of the individual person. Perhaps in this regard, they are also conservative because they are being very precious about protecting what amount to 300 year old enlightenment attitudes as expressed through the dominant political ideology, which most certainly does not need to be coddled in any way, shape, or form.

TLDR: great essay. Sorry, but I just had to respond with my own :\

but you fight Yaldabaoth Harper! You kill the collective gestalt representative of the status quo!

I need someone to say something about how, where Star Trek has denuded technobabble, Persona has denuded psychobabble. I mean, you just about have said it, but I just take particular umbrage with Yaldabaoth getting filtered through a lens of "that word sounds Jungian enough, doesn't it? That's what we're looking for - let's use it." A work becomes wilfully impenetrable, as a selling point, when it takes real peoples' concepts and strips them of meaning.