drakonis

idk wahts goin on

heavy metal scientist. sometimes literally. fountain pen enjoyer. queer and more than old enough to remember when you couldn't use the internet and your home phone at the same time


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WobblyPython
@WobblyPython

Just think about how many times the internet could be a better place if some dickhead mod didn't say "Well TECHNICALLY he didn't do anything WRONG." like social spaces are the text of a Magic: the Gathering card.

No. Throw the guy out.


Beancatte
@Beancatte
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xkeeper
@xkeeper
Sorry! This post has been deleted by its original author.

ring
@ring

These are great and having a "mod decisions are final" thing up front is a good signal to assholes that they can't pull one of their favorite entrenchment tactics: socially dividing the moderators from the broader community and convincing them that everyone else will turn on them for being megalomaniacs if they ban one disruptive fuckhead.

A constant of community management is that if you let a rules lawyer gain a foothold they WILL suck up as much air as they possibly can. Assholes are very, very good at making their targets feel like anything short of smoking gun evidence of deliberate wrongdoing will result in divided opinion and massive backlash. They can maintain this illusion with incredible success even in situations where their bullshit is basically the sole source of drama in the community.

I'm not sure why this happens, but my best guess is that most people don't really enjoy being in conflict with their social group and deliberately, maliciously starting shit just bewilders us. The idea that someone would actively try to be disliked by and hurt people who are inclined to be neutral/friendly doesn't have a good explanation, it's stressful and upsetting, and it puts people on the defensive. In the abusive relationships I've been in--most of them friendships--the opening volley to start controlling behavior almost always involved wildly disproportionate anger or hurt at something that healthy adults could have resolved in five seconds with, "Oh, shit, sorry." "Hey, no problem." A rando doing this may get the door shut in their face, but when it's a friend or someone you're meant to cooperate with it prompts a repair response--they wouldn't be reacting like that if something wasn't horribly wrong, right?

Now introduce the fact that moderators and community managers of most modern social media sites or video games or other public communities are employees of major companies who are handling a customer. This is actually a major reason I think social media has sucked so badly for humanity--a dipshit dealing with an employee doesn't have to make them feel isolated from the community and unlikely to be supported in their moderation decisions, because their employer has already taken care of that. They know whoever they're dealing with has very little autonomy, has to be polite to them, and if they complain high enough up the chain about being banned for anything short of confessing to murder they can probably get them reprimanded or even fired.

You don't have to ban most people in a normal community. You don't even have to warn most people in a normal community. The time and effort required to keep giving, say, a toxic player repeated chances to be a productive member of a video game community can be far beyond what's required for everyone else combined. The Zendesk back and forth with some of these fuckheads is nothing but months and months of them accusing moderation staff of personally targeting them and ruining their life for temporarily suspending them while the mods patiently try to explain to them why their behavior is unacceptable. The internal discussions all boil down to, "Well, we can't ban them, so now what?" because everyone knows that unless cops are involved the burden of proof will be on the moderators to show that they did everything in their power to keep a user onboarded.

Also, the number of true fuckheads who will just immediately go to Reddit and straight up lie about why they were banned is pretty staggering. One of many actual examples: "I don't know what I did! I think they banned me for naming my character after a dog. :(" and the community rage only ended with the reveal that they had actually just been calling people racist slurs. But usually the mods don't get a chance to clarify.

Everyone is so used to this that it's actually visible in some of the kneejerk fear about Cohost and other small platforms. A lot of digital ink has been spilled arguing that we've seen vague rules leveraged to punish marginalized people before, which is true--but the whole argument presupposes that there is or will be an authority above the people who wrote them who can veto or mandate their enforcement, and that the people responsible for interpreting them are not supposed to bring their own values or opinions into moderation decisions. Even if that opinion is just, "Wow, what an asshole."


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in reply to @WobblyPython's post:

I have had way too much experience with being the first person to realize vibes are rancid and bail (or split the IRC channel) long before everyone else finally catches up to the same conclusion.

You can tell someone's tendencies LONG before they actually test the waters enough to think they can get away with the bannable thing, it turns out.

I was in a community for seven years that kept letting jerks post until they crossed enough lines to be banned, only to give them a "second chance" after a few months because they claimed to have changed. Second chances turned into third and fourth. I'm so glad I left and I got involved in other communities which ultimately led me to the communities I'm into today surrounded by great peeps.

I still talk to a small handful of those peeps and occasionally they'll vent about dudes who keep being jerks and it's like the same dudes from fifteen years ago. I have no idea how they all have put up with that for so long. You don't need toxic people in your spaces; it's okay.

in reply to @Beancatte's post:

in reply to @xkeeper's post:

pre-exodus neogaf was not a perfect forum by any means, but one thing i liked about it was a few of the mods learned at some point during gamergate that this kind of boundary-testing nonsense is Hostile Posting and does not need to be entertained if it isn't specifically breaking a rule; you can just ban someone the instant they start Just Asking Questions and everything keeps moving along perfectly fine.

It's kinda wild to me that the Goonstation moderation team is legitimately really good at it, but they are. I think it almost helps that because of the nature of the game they can define it in terms of what sort of jerkish behavior is acceptable and then exclude all else.

But like, every experience I've had with them - even the ones where they're telling me to knock it off, which I'll admit have happened - has ultimately been a good one.

as one of the admins/developers there are definitely times i have seen some bad bans handed out, but for the most part things are done well

it pisses off the funny gamer word people on r/ss13, too, which is nice

in reply to @ivym's post: