• they/them

Why do they call it oven when you of in the cold food of out hot eat the food


vogon
@vogon

like I understand why this was kept shtum, because the dishonest were selling to people who were in large part nontechnical, but the fact that this is coming out in december of 2022 is still incredible to me

edit: per @ceo-of-eurogaming, apparently the possibility for this was known In The Community since July of 2021 if not earlier (https://manifoldxyz.substack.com/p/royalties-demystified-), but this obviously never made it into the talking points of anyone who was trying to pitch people on it

(original tweet below the fold)


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in reply to @vogon's post:

it's hilarious because, of all people, they were the ones with the tools to be inquisitive and critical about this, but they were so blinded by dollar signs that they decided to take the money guys at face value

the wild part to me is that it's not at all a new revelation. this has been known and repeatedly publicised for the entire lifetime of the nft craze. but it's impossible to counter that level of cult behavior with mere reality.

amazing the marketing you can do when you're willing to totally ignore anything inconvenient to your pitch

was it? supposedly the technical groundwork for automatic royalties was in ethereum since 2020 and as far as I ever saw, nobody represented the royalties as optional -- it's possible that people were talking about it and it just never came to my attention, though

christ, never mind, I guess I assumed that an EIP about NFT royalties would actually do something about NFT royalties instead of just being a fancy text box that the marketplace could ignore

incredible work, everyone involved

Actually, I have probably hedged way too hard there. In the first paragraph of EIP 2981 there's this banger.

"This is intended for NFT marketplaces that want to support the ongoing funding of artists and other NFT creators. The royalty payment must be voluntary, as transfer mechanisms such as transferFrom() include NFT transfers between wallets, and executing them does not always imply a sale occurred."

So nevermind, I foolishly failed to apply the expectation of malice to the crypto world.

you know I was going to say this restriction made sense, until I realized that you could elaborate the system slightly and restrict this to only transfers which included a complementary counter-movement of tokens, and account for basically all of the cases that matter

truly a heinous intentional oversight

you would still have to settle for, I think:

  • the last sale price in some common unit(s) of account would have to be marked on the NFT by an exchange (but at least it would be verifiable);
  • future sales would have to be denominated in one of the currencies marked in that way;
  • sales for which the premium was nonnegative and the royalty percentage of the premium over the last sale price is too small to be represented would have to either fail or be rounded

but that’s better than giving up on the idea entirely and punting it to the exchange

the original thread is amusing https://github.com/ethereum/EIPs/issues/2907#issuecomment-789346884 because it's kind of a microcosm of the whole crypto world. basically the thing that they want to do, is not possible to solve technically. but they refuse to really engage with that, instead just papering around the issue so they can say they've done something, and punting all the problems to the exchanges instead.

Just brutal levels of self-delusion, ignorance, and malice that leads to a situation where every time you run into a "oh this won't work" problem, you just totally ignore that it won't work, and market it as working anyway.

Oh yeah. And an artist not having an inherent understanding of the underlying technical details isn't viewed as a flaw in a technically complicated and flawed system, it's just viewed as the artist making a mistake it's totally fine to capitalize on.

It's very up there with how most things calling themselves a DAO and selling tokens for it etc pretend to be an elaborate, uncorruptible machine but are in fact just votes the owner promises to respect unless it becomes inconvenient for them, and coincidentally always seems to have more of than anyone else. They are more than happy to shout to the heavens they've solved big problems - while putting their hands out for payment, but never want to invest the actual work into finding out if a solution might even be possible.

it gets better: because the exchanges that let you bypass royalties are explicitly doing so with the goal of avoiding the regulations put in place by mainstream exchanges, your odds of being scammed dramatically increase when using them. absolutely no one wins, except for, as always, the grifters

Yeah the "secondary royalties" was always, at best, the equivalent of a note written on the back of the artwork saying "If you sell this, please send some of the money to..."

Largely I think it go overshadowed because by the time it was becoming an issue, there were bigger issues like people continuing to mint new copies of "exclusive limited edition" NFTs or simply burning collections to re-mint and leaving the original buyers in a lurch etc.

Everything in the NFT space hinged entirely on the willingness of the users NOT to abuse the system, while incentivizing them to abuse the system.

NFTs do almost nothing on the chain because coding for the Ethereum "virtual machine" is nightmarish, and hugely expensive in terms of "gas" to pay for computation. They don't even store the images themselves on the chain, all that gets stored is a location, typically on a traditional web server, because even small JPEGs are too large to keep in the blockchain itself. There's no mechanism in most NFT systems to enforce royalties on resales because there's almost no mechanisms there at all.

"Line Goes Up" goes into this to a degree. There's a ebook version of the script for it that Olson made available to Patreon subscribers (while telling folks to go ahead and share it as widely as they feel like so google for it if you want), and here's some cut-and-pasting from it:

Even the argument that artists could make passive revenue off secondary sales turned out to have a lot of caveats attached.

One, the smart contract for the token needs to have a function that defines royalties, so anyone who minted a token based off of hype making it sound like an inherent function of the system was out of luck.

And, two, the token doesn’t know what a sale is and can’t differentiate between being sold and being transferred, so it’s actually the marketplace that informs the token “you’re being sold” and collects the royalties.

End result, royalties are easily bypassed simply by using a marketplace that doesn’t collect royalties or uses a different format of royalty collection that’s incompatible with the function the token uses.

This did get some brief coverage in Dan Olson's video about Crypto/NFTs back in January. Specifically, mentioning how some artists found that it wasn't automatically built into the NFT system, and how some marketplaces just never bothered to use the contract calls to execute the royalties, or that there competing APIs for contracts that different marketplaces supported.

But it may not have completely penetrated into the general knowledge, even as highly viewed as that video was, it was extremely information dense.

It was amusing when Ubisoft launched their quartz nft system, but very explicitly said that their tokens could only be sold on specific marketplaces. I'm not 100% certain how they were planning on enforcing that (might have just been ubisoft account bans) but yeah, generally the systems often don't distinguish between "sale" and "move". You need to be able to transfer artwork between your own wallets without incurring the royalty cost for the system to not be ridiculous, but that just leaves a loophole in place.