erysdren

VICTIM OF THE MOON

23 - script kitty (ΞΈβ¨Ί) & actual real life vampire

wife: @evie-src

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cathoderaydude
@cathoderaydude
w0lf
@w0lf asked:

I'm not sure if it's really a You question given it's broadcast you care most about but: do you have any ideas or Opinions about how big camcorders really were? Like for people, how many people actually used them actively and made neighbours and friends suffer their children existing or badly shot holiday flicks? And how much was just like, companies trying to make fetch happen and marketing heavily. I never felt like I saw camcorders except for school, but maybe this is an australia thing

i'm glad you asked if I have any ideas or opinions because I definitely have no facts on this. my feeling on it is this: everyone owned a camcorder here, everyone used it constantly, and nobody watched the results.


Camcorders were so heavily marketed, and there are so many on the used market. They sold easily tens of millions, and I could believe hundreds. If you put a pin in like 1994, I bet there were at least 30 different models being sold simultaneously. This was definitely marketed hard, but you have to remember that these were being sold from the mid 70s, continuously. By the 80s, if you watched a movie and a Parent said "oh no, we forgot the camcorder, we HAVE to go back for it" - I really, firmly believe that was reflecting the cultural reality.

My family had a camcorder. Other households I visited as a child had them. I've found plenty in other peoples houses, stuffed in closets. I think that by the late 80s/early 90s, virtually everyone from the lower middle class up owned one.

Now: How much were they shooting? That is a much more intriguing question.

I wouldn't say that I've collected an enormous number of VHS / Hi8 / etc. tapes in my life, but... that makes part of the statement on its own, actually. It's far more common to come across a camcorder than to come across any used tapes. Maybe people are just more careful with them, but I doubt that. People of all ages throw out whole computers with untouched hard drives, without even the slightest effort to protect their privacy. I doubt that they look at a box of unlabeled VHS tapes they haven't thought about in decades and go "no, we have to keep those, even though we're throwing out the camcorder and VCR." Maybe, but... I don't think so. So perhaps there are just simply not that many tapes.

Of those I have obtained, the overwhelming majority were VHS, and almost all of those were recordings of TV shows and movies. That was the original point of VHS and IME/IMO, it remained the primary use case until the bitter end.

When I find 8mm/DV tapes, they are exactly what you'd expect: School plays, house parties, birthday parties for small children, soccer matches, etc. And my tendency has always been to imagine that America shot hundreds of millions of miles of tape of these events, and that all of it was utterly wasted.

My personal belief has long been that the camcorder is one of the most remarkable hoaxes ever perpetrated on the public; the idea that you will go and shoot footage of anything and then want to watch it later is laughable. House parties are not fun on tape; what was funny when someone said it at 9PM is not funny in the cold light of day. You can barely even make it out, in fact, because microphones are so much worse than human ears.

The same is true for the ubiquitous school play: as eardum-rending as those are in person, they are raw static when recorded into a pinhole electret mic with automatic gain control in an echo chamber auditorium. You hear more of the coughing audience and the tape mechanism and dad's fingers rustling on the plastic of the camera than you do the performance.

After the initial novelty, the first few attempts to watch what they'd recorded, people had to have quietly, sheepishly realized how absolutely unwatchable Home Movies actually are. I think that Americans bought tens of millions of VHS-C and 8mm tapes, shot them, and then put them in a box where they never so much as got rewound. But that didn't stop anyone from shooting those tapes.

I think that the camcorder was a hoax, but not a fraud, because:

it gave Dad something to do.

It gave Men, largely, a way to be a part of something they were not in fact contributing to, an Important Role to serve in virtually every activity: Dave will bring the camcorder. The creation of the tapes was the point; watching them wasn't just disappointing, it wasn't even necessary.

This is all pure armchair psychology, I have no proof of it except my observations of human nature: After the first couple clearly-disastrous Screenings, the prototypical Dad would not have wanted to expose himself to more humiliation, so yeah, I doubt the tapes ever really did much after they got taken out of the camcorder.


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in reply to @cathoderaydude's post:

that is a very interesting question, because I think it's arguable that smartphones are used to take trillions more pictures and hours of video than conventional cameras ever were, but they also make referring back to that material so easy that people have deeply integrated the use of recording into their lives, using their phones to extend their visual and auditory memory and to enhance the retelling of anecdotes.

to wit, how many Coworkers ever showed up to the office with a 30 second videotape of their dog doing something silly, instead of just explaining it to you? now, how easy is it to imagine a coworker pulling up a video of their dog doing something silly on their phone, saving the whole explanation?

how many people use a picture to explain what their car looks like to a parking attendant or friend? how many use a picture to remember which spices they need to buy? people have so many new uses for photos, and they make heavy use of those uses.

now: what's the valley look like? in between "takes 100k pictures a year, where once they would have taken 200" and "actually uses those pictures on the daily," do we think that any given picture or video, on average, is more or less likely to get replayed than it was 30 years ago?

I wonder how much of that is because a camcorder is frankly an inconvenient thing to lug around as opposed to your phone which you have on you all the time

like I have a camera, distinct from my phone camera, that was a fairly basic bridge camera at the time I got it ten years ago, and it still takes better pictures than my phone

but it also doesn't fit in a pocket therefore I rarely have it on me when I see something I want to take a picture of

yeah, it's certainly an interesting comparison

especially since... as far as most people are concerned, storage is "free". i mean, sure they might pay for it, might bitch at running out of it on their phone, but

a year of photographs would take up actual, sizable physical space. VHS tapes are fuckin' massive, a tape takes up about the space of 3 jewel cases. which probably isn't even a comparison that makes sense to kids today, uh. don't have a better one though. And they don't hold... that much. so you'd go through them a lot faster.

I don't know if they've gotten rid of them or not, but by the time I moved out, my parents had a Large storage bin or two full of VHS/DV tapes and we were fairly early adopters on the mini side. Heavy, took up a lot of actual space, hard to look through...

do we think that any given picture or video, on average, is more or less likely to get replayed than it was 30 years ago?

Hmm, for pictures:
I think 30y ago it was likely that they were looked at again, like showing people pictures from a holiday, or parents creating photo albums for/of their kids - those are still occasionally viewed decades later, maybe even by the kid's kids.. (well, that's my experience from my family at least).
As back then you didn't take that many pictures, the ratio of taken picture vs picture looked at again later was probably relatively high.
People still do photo albums (in my experience..), or custom printed photo calendars (popular xmas present for (grand)parents in my family), but because taking photos is basically free now, the ratio is much lower.
And I think this isn't just about "taking multiple pictures of the same scene and choose the best", but also about taking pictures of stuff that you won't end up showing anyone (I have so many pictures of my cat :-D).
And then again, often pictures taken with phones are pretty shit, even with modern ones that theoretically have high resolution etc.

For videos:
Not sure.. and I guess there are multiple categories here:

  1. Long videos (arbitrary definition: >3minutes or so)
  2. Short videos
    A. Showing to someone on your phone within a few days of taking it
    B. Rewatching it years later
    (C. Only looking at them yourself while scrolling your phone - I guess this is a thing for photos as well, do only you look at them again or do you show them to anyone else?)

I'm sure people take long videos (esp. on concerts or probably school plays and stuff), but I doubt anyone really watches them or shows them to anyone (at least not more than some seconds of a video), so I guess that's pretty similar to camcorders?

For short videos this is different: If you have a 20 second video of your pet (or kid, I guess :-p) doing something funny/cute, you'll probably rewatch it while scrolling your phone's gallery, and you might show it to other people as well (incl. posting on social media or in chat groups etc).
Will you rewatch it years later, esp. when you have a new phone and haven't migrated your old videos (and pictures), and only have a backup on some PC/laptop? Probably not, unless it was a really good video (but if you had a really funny video on camcorder you probably showed it to people as well, or sent it to some "funniest home videos" TV show or whatever)..

this is a good bit, and I do absolutely know exactly how Harsh But Fair it is. yeah, film photogs shoot an incredible amount of film that never gets developed. but what's more interesting to me is my knee-jerk reaction: "yeah, but at least you're practicing an actual skill."

if i'm honest, i think I'm pretty much right: dad's camcorder work was not likely to get better over time, but every hobby photographer who takes a picture at least thinks they're doing a good job, or is trying to do a good job.

even if they never show a picture to anyone, even if they never develop anything, even if they're really down on themselves - hell, even if they objectively suck - i assert that the process of taking a picture, to anyone in [gestures] the set we're talking about, is intrinsically more rewarding than what Dad was doing. i'd have to spend a couple more hours Unpacking to figure out how to say why, of course.

it's like you KNOW i have a couple rolls of film on my desk that have been sitting there for a month waiting for me to mix another batch of developer! come on!! i thought cohost was supposed to be a safe sp

i am totally practicing an actual skill, but at some point i'm still camcorder dadding even if i get well-composed results out. it's easier to show off a good still photo of your friend doing something stupid at the bar than an awful videotape of the same event, but ultimately the photo got taken for the same reason, i'm attempting to Document Events that nobody who was not part of the group involved is going to care about for more than thirty seconds.

maybe being good enough at photography to make them care about it for thirty seconds instead of zero is worth something, but i mean i also do stuff that's definitely "art photography" and i approach it very differently

Counterpoint(ish): Many tools/gadgets with mainstream-appeal are similar in this regard to some degree.
Some people might use photo cameras to take pictures that are somehow interesting or trying to build a skill or something, but let's face it, most people (including myself) just took/take snapshots of some party or holiday or whatever, without any artistic or artisanal aspirations. Some of them might turn out ok, but most will only be interesting for people related to the people on the picture, if at all..

Similar for camcorders: Some used them to create cool films (and them being so common made this affordable/accessible!), for example some guys in school created cool short-films with Matrix-like slowmo-effects with camcorders (and probably a TV-card to digitize the films and postprocess them on PC). I think at least one of them became at least a professional photographer, maybe he also still does videos, no idea.
But of course most people just did those home videos that no one will look at ever again, as you mentioned.

Or computers: The possibilities of a PC! You can program your own tools or games, or create levels and art for games (mods), or digital music, or use it to write a Book, or ...
And some people do (and maybe did to a bigger degree 20y back when basically everyone had a PC, and not just a smartphone/tablet and a crappy old laptop for when they have to do taxes or type a letter or whatever) - but many just use(d) it to surf the internet, watch pirated movies and play computer games (which is ok! but doesn't use the potential)

Or smartphones/tablets: My little nephew does cool little Lego stop-motion movies with an old iPad or such, but most people just use those devices passively (or to take pictures and videos of their pets)

i appreciate the long and detailed response which basically aligns with my hunches! also as someone who shoots film and almost never does anything further than develop + look at it, i Understand the "something to do"

I wonder what proportion of tape is taken up by high school and maybe small-college sports. School plays are relatively infrequent, but larger schools often have several sports events per week that coaches might want to record and review, and the lack of quality audio isn't much of a problem in that use case.

Even the small school that I went to (which had maybe 100-120 kids total between 7th and 12th grade) had a camcorder that saw regular use -- when I quit playing sports in 2005 I was tasked with filming two to three football/two to four basketball games per week. And it wasn't just us: we were obtaining copies of tapes from other schools of similar, even smaller size.

I guess some of these tapes are lying around somewhere -- nowadays HS sports channels are all over Youtube, but it's interesting to see that someone took the time to upload old games; not just playoff games but also regular season games too, and while a lot of it comes from some of the championship programs, there's also just random-ass matchups like this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mzDdzsbtkTw&list=PLnBOtK0qLeoRqF67avsXG_Ju0aVejI4I9&index=10

camcorders were also much bigger in use in the 90s than in the 80s, purely as a function of prices coming down dramatically.

in 1985, the average unit cost $1095 according to the industry https://www.nytimes.com/1986/06/02/business/camcorder-cd-sales-may-double-in-1986.html

by 1991 sears was touting store-brand camcorders for $764.98 for Christmas http://www.wishbookweb.com/FB/1991_Sears_Wishbook/files/assets/basic-html/page-4.html

in 1994, JCPenney had a store brand bulky camcorder for as little as $559.99 http://www.wishbookweb.com/FB/1994_JCPenney_ChristmasCatalog/files/assets/basic-html/page-465.html

and by 1997, Best Buy was putting a JVC camcorder on sale for $399.99 for black friday https://imgur.com/gallery/oQTy6

and well across this time period with inflation and all, that 1997 camcorder sale was about 1/4 the price of the mid 80s average. all these price drops drastically increased the suitability of the camcorder for the Dad Wants A Gift market and all.

all that said i do have fond memories of family gatherings where the Camcorder Dads present would show the like 3 minutes total of interesting footage they'd recorded over the past year (and they must have recorded way more than that but were aware it would drag) and we'd all be like oh yeah that was kinda cool. let's go back to watching something else now that the Camcorder Dads had their fun.

my dad isn't much of a typical american dad i think but he's got one home movie from about the mid 90s that he's always been really fond of. although, now that you mention it, a lot of it was pretty specifically staged (not expertly, of course, but with a clear intention of being a memento of sorts), some family members telling stories and skits with the kids at the time, with only a little bit of like, "we were just recording people hanging out". i don't know how much i'd want to watch it these days but i do get why he's always been so happy about it

I think there's one major use case that you haven't mentioned, but I have no idea how common it was.

All of my dad's family lived in one region, but we lived far out of state. So a significant portion of the camcorder video we shot was For Grandma. Remember that long distance phone calls still cost real money up through the late 2000s, so when you lived out of state you couldn't just call anytime something of interest happened (or was about to happen).

When going through our family's tapes to digitize them, a good portion had explicit intros of who the tape was for, and why it was being sent. There were also a handful of tapes where "best of" clips were dubbed together to wrap up the year. I assume my dad had a regular cadence to mail tapes back and forth with his family. I know that they were watched, because we'd have comments or replies in the later tapes (e.g. "here's another angle of the new fence").

On the other hand, my wife grew up in the same area of all her family, so the tapes were basically hour+ long tripod footage of opening Christmas/birthday presents. I would not be surprised to learn that they were never watched before we digitized them (or after, lol).

The camcorder and recording of events more as an American ritual than as anything genuinely useful or fruitful. It gave events a symbolic importance and significance, even if the tape was never watched. My cousins used to have a DVD camcorder - not that I've ever seen the camcorder itself, but rather, I stumbled across the stash of dozens of completely stacked spindles of mini-DVDs with sharpied labels, and I guarantee not a single one has ever been watched back (or perhaps even finalized... shudder)

Ironically I've very recently found a genuine good purpose for my collection of camcorders. A coworker found a stash of those unwatched, unrewound Hi8 and MiniDV tapes - only they contain some of the only existing footage of her long-passed father, which she's reaching out to me to help save. I like when things work out that way - the rare moment where that fruitless ritual of past Americana comes in handy as a very emotionally significant time capsule of a lost loved one. Moments of captured genuine reality that would otherwise be mind-numbingly dull suddenly take on a deeply personal importance - but that's the thing, then. Personal. The tapes are only really relevant to her, and the few others to whom her father was significant. Even to me, they come across as mind-achingly dull, despite how nice it makes me feel to help give her a piece of her father back.

As another Australian, growing up in Canberra finishing year 12 in '99, for me in primary school and most of high school, it was only the actually rich kids who's families had camcorders. Australia tax was a thing back then too, so a lot of tech was really quite expensive, only the fancy shops had video cameras (David Jones, not Grace Bros or Harvey Norman, and probably specialist electronics shops, but I never went to those).

by the time I finished in '99 they were a lot more accessible though, and several of my friends had them in university in the early 00s, as early 20s folks they were a bit of fun, but way more effort to actual be good with than most of us could put up with.

During school, though there was that dad who had all the gear, like 16mm film cameras, 4 different SLRs with various lenses on and old pro-grade video cameras, always had some camera recording school shows and took photos all the time.

Of course, that changed as we all started getting phones with ok enough video recording capabilities, all sorts of stupid shit got recorded, and shared on bebo or myspace or whatever PHPBB thing we were hanging out on.